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Old 05-27-2007, 02:10 PM
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karoliina karoliina is offline
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Default Diamond DA-40TDI made forced landing to sea, in front of Helsinki

I saw from sail boat the Diamond DA-40 which is in use for our flying club members, OH-FDA. It came from Nokka and was heading to the sea apparently for Tallin, because it turned to left. We had just commented to the other occupants on the sail boat that it is so cool and nice plane. Not too far after that we saw a plane in descend coming to the opposite direction and landing to water, and it was the OH-FDA and it was a controlled forced landing. Currently it is not known why the engine had quit or lost power which caused the forced landing.

All three occupants are unharmed according to friends from the flying club and the plane apparently is in repairable condition. Maybe the 26g safety cockpit & very soft stalling charasteristics made it possible to stall the plane to the water so that it didn't flip over.

Here is a story and picture on my blog (in english):
http://www.karoliinasalminen.com/blog/?p=200

We went to see the plane second time after it was lifed to the ground to Helsinki harbour and it seems that everything is intact except right wing which may have some damage (not sure from the distance we saw it).

It could have been that we could have been in the plane.
We weren't though, we were sailing the whole weekend.

Here is some discussion about the accident on Flight Forum (in Finnish), but there are more & better pictures there:
http://www.flightforum.fi/forum/inde...c,66254.0.html
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Last edited by karoliina : 05-27-2007 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 05-27-2007, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
...it is so cool and nice plane...
Even cooler now, perhaps even chilly...

Glad they got out, and glad to see a fixed gear aircraft ditch successfully, (standby for gear up/gear down ditching debate restart). What sort of engine did it have? Saw an article somewhere on a diesel Twinstar flying with a flat battery recently. When he retracted the gear both engines stopped...
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Old 05-27-2007, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spodman View Post
Even cooler now, perhaps even chilly...

Glad they got out, and glad to see a fixed gear aircraft ditch successfully, (standby for gear up/gear down ditching debate restart). What sort of engine did it have? Saw an article somewhere on a diesel Twinstar flying with a flat battery recently. When he retracted the gear both engines stopped...
Diamond TDI models are equipped with
Thielert Centurion 1.7 turbo diesel + FADEC + MT Propeller CS prop
Same engine as on DA-42 Twin Star.
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Old 05-27-2007, 09:28 PM
Nathan Gifford Nathan Gifford is offline
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Glad to hear no one was hurt. Spectacular photos.
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:02 PM
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Default Maritime Salvage Rights

That might have been a great oportunity for you to get a good start on an experimental airplane.
International Maritime Law would state that if you sailed over to the plane and offered them a line from your boat and they fixed it to the plane, or if they abandoned the plane and got aboard your boat, you would be free to tie a line on the plane and declare salvage rights. At that point it is up to you to declare the value of the salvaged object. You cannot prevent the club or the insurance company from paying your price but of course if it is higher than the plane's value it's yours.
It is always a sticky situation, if your vessal is stuck or disabled you should always use your lines not the rescuers unless it is clearly understood the help or assistance is free of charges or obligations.

Regards, Chrissi
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:19 PM
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this law starts at 200 miles off shore
the rope thing just makes you libel
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Old 05-28-2007, 01:28 AM
chasingmars chasingmars is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve parkins View Post
this law starts at 200 miles off shore
the rope thing just makes you libel
I think you mean liable... unless tying a line to a plane really does make you start spouting slanderous falsehoods?!
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Old 05-28-2007, 02:15 AM
kenmemphis kenmemphis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasingmars View Post
I think you mean liable... unless tying a line to a plane really does make you start spouting slanderous falsehoods?!
I'll bet there were a few expletives uttered by more than one person involved.

Pilot
Passengers
Flight Club
Manufacturer (don't you know they love the press)
Agent that wrote the policy on the plane etc...

I followed the links and watched the videos too.... thanks

Glad they are OK
The slander may come if the equivalent of the FAA blames the pilot without conclusive evidence.
I've seen NTSB accident reports in the US where planes were blown over and the conclusion was the pilot failure to maintain directional control ..bla bla bla
In actuality in some situations you can do everything right and end up along for the ride. In most case, not all, the NTSb report conclusions are on the money but, in some cases the conclusion of fault is not warranted.
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  #9  
Old 05-28-2007, 08:31 AM
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Yes, the problem of the FAA equivalents seems to be usually that they want to find who is guilty rather than finding what was the cause so that it can be avoided on the next time and it is so easy to always blame the pilot even if the pilot did everything exactly by book. However, what I have heard, it certainly was an engine problem and the pilot is not to be blamed, but rather thanked for saving the passangers, himself and even keeping the plane in a single piece.

Chrissi, it is not possible to declare someone else's property to myself only because it landed on the water some 50 meters from the shoreline and I happened to be on a boat. If it would turn out to be totalled, I think it would indeed be a good experimental project start to purchase, from pictures & from 50 meters with binoculars, it looks to be in so good condition that I could certainly fix the airframe, would be no big deal. The avionics and electrical system is propably screwed and possibly the engine as well, and apparently after all, the propeller was also broken. But other than that, the airframe is a lot more complete than the fastest fast build kit one can buy from any kit manufacturer and besides of that it is a very nice plane with about perfect handling charasteristics for a light four seat plane and according to manufacturer, it is one of the safest aircraft in the World, the monococue composite airframe is allegedly very strong and the reason why it does not have a parachute as standard currently (unlike Cirrus) is that it has very low minimum descent rate, low stall speed and the airframe and cockpit is strong and it tolerates crashes and protects the occupants.

It is a kind of pity since I was supposed to get type training to this particular aircraft pretty soon since my PPL is about finished and I was planning to move on and leave Cessna flying behind with the Diamond available, but now the Diamond is out of use for unknown time and it kind of sucks. There are only two of these in Finland and the another one is not available for rent. All the other planes in Finland are about exclusively at least 20-40 years old dinosaurs. Well, on the other hand, none of the Lycosaur dinosaurs have failed during my flying time (started 2004), but the diesels haven't been without problems now and then. This problem at this time happened to be a more severe one unfortunately. Lets see what Thielert comments on it... Will it go like Thielert blames Diamond or Diamond blames Thielert or how it will go?
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Old 05-28-2007, 11:15 AM
Leon Leon is offline
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as I have written before, Thielert has serious issues with their engines ...

i am glad no one was hurt in this accident !

I've just had my CPL IFR check ride, and I have spent the last 70 hrs flight time on the left seat of both a DA40 and DA42, as well as another 70hrs on the backseat, with my friend doing the same. so a total of 140 hrs thielert time.

sofar we've had :

ECU A FAIL
DUAL ALTERNATOR FAIL
POWER LOSS TO 35% (limp home mode) emergency descent in IMC over the alps (MEA 12000, MORA 15000)
A TOTAL OF THREE ENGINE SWAPS (1 DA40, 2 DA42)
TWO ALTERNATOR SWAPS (DA42)

this is excluding all the failures we had with the autopilot and the garmin g1000.

yes i like the engines, no i don't like the way they don't hold up. no engine ever has met the 1500 TBGANFE (TBGettingANewF****nEngine), the most we have managed so far os 960 hrs, and Thielert is now giving us two brand spanking new 2.0 in exchange for the 1.7, as they wan't to know whay they held up so long

the german LBA is thinking about grounding all DA42 because of the errornous electrical system (dead battery, external power start, gear retract and both engines die, as happend in germany couple of weeks ago)

I sure hope they get their stuff together at thielert .. i like the diesel flying, very very much
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Old 05-28-2007, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
the 1500 TBGANFE (TBGettingANewF****nEngine)
Once in a while we get a classic.
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Old 05-28-2007, 07:55 PM
Lynn Erickson Lynn Erickson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
the german LBA is thinking about grounding all DA42 because of the errornous electrical system (dead battery, external power start, gear retract and both engines die, as happend in germany couple of weeks ago)

I sure hope they get their stuff together at thielert .. i like the diesel flying, very very much
What is it about the diesel that makes you like it? I think you mentioned enough reasons for me to not like the Theilert diesel at all.
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  #13  
Old 05-29-2007, 12:44 AM
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karoliina karoliina is offline
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One simple thing: economy and environmental values.

A plane with consumption of JET-A1 5 gallons per hour at 1 EUR per liter is very inexpensive to operate. Fuel cost $24 per hour with JET-A1.

A plane with similar performance, e.g. DA-40-180:
Fuel cost ~$78, 100LL with AVGAS - formidably more expensive than JET-A1.

Average 200 hours per year fuel cost for DA-40TDI:
200*24 = $4800

Average 200 hours per year fuel cost for DA-40-180 or any other plane with the IO-360:
200*78 = $15600

In 10 years one saves with only the difference a price of used Diamond DA-40TDI very easily.

The caused pollution, CO2 etc. simply is lower on engine which burns fuel more efficiently.

Difference: 15600-4800 = $10800 per year.
What would you do with 10800 per year extra money?
With DA-40TDI you could buy fuel for additional 450 flight hours.
I think there is plenty of use for it. If you think that the engine package cost for the diesel is about the same or even a bit less than comparable Lycoming (320...360) with MT Propeller CS prop and the FADEC the package contains, you don't lose that even on the engine price. Besides of that it is very nice to operate with FADEC, it runs smoothly with less noise than Lycoming to the cockpit and it is also for the outsiders a lot more silent than a gasoline aircraft engine, even if it would be equipped with a silencer that they usually are not. The Thielert sounds like a car in the sky - a lot less complains in congested Helsinki area with operating a relatively silent aircraft. And of course it is new technology, the Lycomings are ancient and they fail because they are weak on places (according to what CAA (=FAA equivalent) have reported), Thielert have problems because it is new and may have some unfound bugs which will get fixed, and eventually it has chance to be the most reliable aircraft engine for single engine piston aircraft. Any new engine is subject to bugs, I am waiting for the reports starting with Deltahawk...
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Old 05-29-2007, 01:04 AM
Leon Leon is offline
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well my 2cents why i like diesel:

JetA is availabla at every medium sized AP, Avgas is dying, whatever you want so hear.

consumption is formidable (5 gph on the DA40, and 10 on the DA42) cruising at 120 repectively 135 IAS and 70% PWR

the FADEC system with single lever user interface is simply marvellous

the sound level is extremely low in cruise, you can talk in the cabin easily without wearing headsets

the turbo gives you great high altutide performance (100% up to around 10.000 ft)

yeah that's about it, so not so little reasons dear Lynn.

it's not the diesel i dislike, its not the thielert systems i dislike, its the thielert reliabilty i have taken a disliking against.
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Old 05-29-2007, 02:55 AM
Lynn Erickson Lynn Erickson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
well my 2cents why i like diesel:

JetA is availabla at every medium sized AP, Avgas is dying, whatever you want so hear.

consumption is formidable (5 gph on the DA40, and 10 on the DA42) cruising at 120 repectively 135 IAS and 70% PWR

the FADEC system with single lever user interface is simply marvellous

the sound level is extremely low in cruise, you can talk in the cabin easily without wearing headsets

the turbo gives you great high altutide performance (100% up to around 10.000 ft)

yeah that's about it, so not so little reasons dear Lynn.

it's not the diesel i dislike, its not the thielert systems i dislike, its the thielert reliabilty i have taken a disliking against.
what is making it undependable and not making 1500 TBO? is it mechanical or the electronics.
A long eze flown at 135 IAS with a 0-235 only burns 3.5 GPH so I don't see where the plane and diesel are all that effecient.
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