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  #16  
Old 11-18-2007, 09:35 AM
DrewChaplin's Avatar
DrewChaplin DrewChaplin is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Expat in Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 467
Default Re: Making Plane Parts

After doing the second layup on the IP stiffners, I turned my attention back to the seat back.

There are several airpockets about 1/2 inch that have been filled. What's been worrying me are the countless small airbubbles down under the layup. There is only one ply of Bid on this layup so it's definitely under it.

As you will recall this is all because I thought I would be smart and simply roll the cling-wrap out on top as a protective layer before putting a sheet of wood on top for weight. Well as the roll unrolled, it pull up the layup ever so slightly sucking in all those tiny bubbles. Big screw-up and even bigger learning mistake. I believe the layup is properly saturated with epoxy, it just has airbubbles underneath it.

So now I figured I have several options

1: leave it. The airbubbles are all very small, mostly small bubbles between the weave. There are several large sections of the layup that are this way and are probably over the 5% layup criteria.

2: Selectively sand away the affected area and perform a structural repair. My concern is that I'll have half the layup gone and have to be patched. Not that it is a probablem, it'll just look bad to have a repair in such a visable place.

3: Try to remove the glass by de-laminating it and leave and inch all the way around the layup. Then redo the layup overlapping what's left of the original.

4: Start Over


Well after pondering it for a while I thought I'd attempt #3. Why? I had a couple pieces of scrap from the F-22. I was able to stick a screwdriver between the ply and foam and pop the glass from the foam. Then it was fairly easy to delaminate the rest.

Great this should be an easy repair.... or so I thought.

I thought I would take the fein, cut the line around the area to be removed. Then pull off the glass. Then feather the remaining glass out by sanding before repairing it.

The cut went fine. I then went for the screwdriver and pop off it comes. A couple divots, but certainly repairable. As I continue I realize this wont be as easy as I first thought.

Some places it came off real nice right down to the bare foam. Almost good enough to do another layup. Other places the glass came off, but left the micro. And other places I damaged the foam trying to pry up the glass.

What I've learned is that some foam holds glass better than other. It does make sense. The seatback foam is opencell and takes a lot of micro to fill up the cells. Foam like the IP is harder and closed cell and takes less micro to fill up.

So I have about 1/3 of the glass off and the it pretty much a mess. Some bare foam, some still covered in micro, and a handful of divots. As I was creating this mess it was starting to dawn on me that I may ultimately be remaking the seatback. Visions of ordering a single sheet of foam and then shipping it halfway around the world are haunting me. Maybe find a piece locally. Maybe cut it in quarters and pack in in our checked luggage at Christmas.

I do realize that seldom is a piece so bad that it's not repairable. I'm at the point now that I'm wondering for a simple piece like the seatback if it's worth the effort to try to repair this mess or just start over.

So I decide see if I have any pieces of this particular foam that I wont need until awhile later. Rats, this is the only place in the plane that uses this type of foam. The plans says you need 1.5 sheets. Spruce has 2 sheets down. Hang one, each sheet is large enough for a seatback.

Well it looks like I have an extra sheet that won't be used. I guess spruce has an extra piece included for screwups like me. Am I correct that Spruces Ch4 has an extra sheet or will I need it later?

So with an extra sheet of foam and the above screwup, is there any reason not just to give up and start over?

One upside to redoing the seatback is improving the front. The front side of the seatback are certainly acceptable, but there are couple dings in the glass from wrinkles in the plastic used to protect the wood. Also I missed a small piece of something that stuck to the wood and created a dent in the front side. Looks bad but I figured I'd just fell it with micro later.
__________________
Drew
---
SN 1200
Celebrating four years of NOT building.

You are buildin a dam airplane from scratch and you do not know what you are doin!!!! - Dust

-Inspired by Burt, designed by Nat, built by me. (Hopefully)

www.Cozy1200.com - just pics and misc ramblings

Last edited by DrewChaplin : 11-18-2007 at 09:45 AM.
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  #17  
Old 11-18-2007, 08:59 PM
Steve parkins's Avatar
Steve parkins Steve parkins is offline
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Location: wa state
Posts: 2,163
Default Re: Making Plane Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewChaplin View Post
After doing the second layup on the IP stiffners, I turned my attention back to the seat back.

There are several airpockets about 1/2 inch that have been filled. What's been worrying me are the countless small airbubbles down under the layup. There is only one ply of Bid on this layup so it's definitely under it.

As you will recall this is all because I thought I would be smart and simply roll the cling-wrap out on top as a protective layer before putting a sheet of wood on top for weight. Well as the roll unrolled, it pull up the layup ever so slightly sucking in all those tiny bubbles. Big screw-up and even bigger learning mistake. I believe the layup is properly saturated with epoxy, it just has airbubbles underneath it.

So now I figured I have several options

1: leave it. The airbubbles are all very small, mostly small bubbles between the weave. There are several large sections of the layup that are this way and are probably over the 5% layup criteria.

2: Selectively sand away the affected area and perform a structural repair. My concern is that I'll have half the layup gone and have to be patched. Not that it is a probablem, it'll just look bad to have a repair in such a visable place.

3: Try to remove the glass by de-laminating it and leave and inch all the way around the layup. Then redo the layup overlapping what's left of the original.

4: Start Over


Well after pondering it for a while I thought I'd attempt #3. Why? I had a couple pieces of scrap from the F-22. I was able to stick a screwdriver between the ply and foam and pop the glass from the foam. Then it was fairly easy to delaminate the rest.

Great this should be an easy repair.... or so I thought.

I thought I would take the fein, cut the line around the area to be removed. Then pull off the glass. Then feather the remaining glass out by sanding before repairing it.

The cut went fine. I then went for the screwdriver and pop off it comes. A couple divots, but certainly repairable. As I continue I realize this wont be as easy as I first thought.

Some places it came off real nice right down to the bare foam. Almost good enough to do another layup. Other places the glass came off, but left the micro. And other places I damaged the foam trying to pry up the glass.

What I've learned is that some foam holds glass better than other. It does make sense. The seatback foam is opencell and takes a lot of micro to fill up the cells. Foam like the IP is harder and closed cell and takes less micro to fill up.

So I have about 1/3 of the glass off and the it pretty much a mess. Some bare foam, some still covered in micro, and a handful of divots. As I was creating this mess it was starting to dawn on me that I may ultimately be remaking the seatback. Visions of ordering a single sheet of foam and then shipping it halfway around the world are haunting me. Maybe find a piece locally. Maybe cut it in quarters and pack in in our checked luggage at Christmas.

I do realize that seldom is a piece so bad that it's not repairable. I'm at the point now that I'm wondering for a simple piece like the seatback if it's worth the effort to try to repair this mess or just start over.

So I decide see if I have any pieces of this particular foam that I wont need until awhile later. Rats, this is the only place in the plane that uses this type of foam. The plans says you need 1.5 sheets. Spruce has 2 sheets down. Hang one, each sheet is large enough for a seatback.

Well it looks like I have an extra sheet that won't be used. I guess spruce has an extra piece included for screwups like me. Am I correct that Spruces Ch4 has an extra sheet or will I need it later?

So with an extra sheet of foam and the above screwup, is there any reason not just to give up and start over?

One upside to redoing the seatback is improving the front. The front side of the seatback are certainly acceptable, but there are couple dings in the glass from wrinkles in the plastic used to protect the wood. Also I missed a small piece of something that stuck to the wood and created a dent in the front side. Looks bad but I figured I'd just fell it with micro later.
ifin that were me, i'd cut the hole side down with my router.
if you set the bit to .01 and just run it all over the foam, you wll get the hang of it very fast and will love the look of the foam when done
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edited by steve for a good reason
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  #18  
Old 11-18-2007, 09:11 PM
DrewChaplin's Avatar
DrewChaplin DrewChaplin is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Expat in Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 467
Default Re: Making Plane Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve parkins View Post
ifin that were me, i'd cut the hole side down with my router.
if you set the bit to .01 and just run it all over the foam, you wll get the hang of it very fast and will love the look of the foam when done
I may give that a try tonight. It's not like I can screw it up any more.
__________________
Drew
---
SN 1200
Celebrating four years of NOT building.

You are buildin a dam airplane from scratch and you do not know what you are doin!!!! - Dust

-Inspired by Burt, designed by Nat, built by me. (Hopefully)

www.Cozy1200.com - just pics and misc ramblings
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  #19  
Old 11-19-2007, 07:29 AM
DrewChaplin's Avatar
DrewChaplin DrewChaplin is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Expat in Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 467
Default Re: Making Plane Parts

Steve, YOU'RE THE MAN

The router is doing the trick nicely. In about 15 minutes I was able to remove over 1/3 of the glass from one side. It does leave a few machining marks, but they should sand out nicely. After doing this, I'm going to proceed with attempting a repair. I report back with PICTURES!
__________________
Drew
---
SN 1200
Celebrating four years of NOT building.

You are buildin a dam airplane from scratch and you do not know what you are doin!!!! - Dust

-Inspired by Burt, designed by Nat, built by me. (Hopefully)

www.Cozy1200.com - just pics and misc ramblings
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  #20  
Old 11-19-2007, 09:50 AM
Dust's Avatar
Dust Dust is offline
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Posts: 7,963
Default Re: Making Plane Parts

well, did your sand paper come? i just sand bad spots and repair, no injecting for me.

sand, 1" overlap and move on
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Enjoy the build,njut av byggandet, godere il costruire, nyd bygningen, geniesse den Bau, apolafse tin kataskevi, disfrute la construcción, curta a construção, Pidä hauskaa rakentamisen parissa, bouw lekker,uživaj grade?inaslajdaites postroikoi, geniet die bou
dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
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  #21  
Old 11-19-2007, 10:15 AM
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Steve parkins Steve parkins is offline
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Location: wa state
Posts: 2,163
Default Re: Making Plane Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewChaplin View Post
Steve, YOU'RE THE MAN

The router is doing the trick nicely. In about 15 minutes I was able to remove over 1/3 of the glass from one side. It does leave a few machining marks, but they should sand out nicely. After doing this, I'm going to proceed with attempting a repair. I report back with PICTURES!
i used the router trick on the urathane foam when i did the nose.
the dry micro seams were killing me, so i cut them down a 1/8 and that would let me sand the urathane for a spell then id cut the seams dowm one more time and so on
when you get there you will see what i mean
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edited by steve for a good reason
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  #22  
Old 11-19-2007, 07:33 PM
DrewChaplin's Avatar
DrewChaplin DrewChaplin is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Expat in Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 467
Default Re: Making Plane Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust View Post
well, did your sand paper come? i just sand bad spots and repair, no injecting for me.

sand, 1" overlap and move on
Sandpaper, Dritz, pump rebuild kit, etc.

The sandpaper does work well. In this case I'm wanting to remove lots of glass. The router just lets me do it more precisely. It like trying to flatting a table with a beltsander or a router. Both will get the job done, ones just easier for the given task.

Besides I like the flexibility of routers.
__________________
Drew
---
SN 1200
Celebrating four years of NOT building.

You are buildin a dam airplane from scratch and you do not know what you are doin!!!! - Dust

-Inspired by Burt, designed by Nat, built by me. (Hopefully)

www.Cozy1200.com - just pics and misc ramblings
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  #23  
Old 11-20-2007, 10:07 AM
Dust's Avatar
Dust Dust is offline
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Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 7,963
Default Re: Making Plane Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewChaplin View Post
Besides I like the flexibility of routers.

I love routers, heh heh heh, as you well knows, and I love the solution.

I should have prefaced my comment that the sander wrks great on small areas
__________________
Enjoy the build,njut av byggandet, godere il costruire, nyd bygningen, geniesse den Bau, apolafse tin kataskevi, disfrute la construcción, curta a construção, Pidä hauskaa rakentamisen parissa, bouw lekker,uživaj grade?inaslajdaites postroikoi, geniet die bou
dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
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