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  #31  
Old 08-22-2006, 05:37 PM
SteveWrightNZ SteveWrightNZ is offline
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nylocks, well I dont like them. Take a look on modern motor vehicles and you wont find them anywhere. For anything critical, I use the correct grade bolt and torque-turn it. All my problems went away when I did that.

I dont use loctite either - I have been bitten more than once with loctite. It sets very quickly while you are tightening the bolt.. torque wrench goes dink-dink.. aha! tight! NOT! Were you fast enough ? How will you know ? I wrecked a crankshaft doing this.

Lubricate the threads with a quality teflon-based grease and learn to torque-turn, or at least tighten with the torque wrench so you know where you are at. Then wire everything as usual.


S
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  #32  
Old 08-26-2006, 02:38 AM
David Staten's Avatar
David Staten David Staten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveWrightNZ
http://www.airmasterpropellers.com/wa.asp?idWebPage=3474

S
I checked out the controller on that page (i had missed it in the original reply since I fixated on my psru feed issue)..

Anyone actually USING this to control an IVO? The IVO has a 20 amp CB on the line to the motor, and one way to determine if you are at the stops is the CB pops. This controller uses about 5 amps max (but the blades are not being twisted like the IVO is).. I am saying.. I dont KNOW if it will work.. but thanks for the suggestion.

GAWD i wish airmaster had high HP stuff and could handle the Rotary.

Dave
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  #33  
Old 08-26-2006, 02:58 AM
David Staten's Avatar
David Staten David Staten is offline
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Default And more..

Over the past two days/nights Chris and I made some more progress.. unfortunately I've slept since then (after an all-nighter, then slept, then work) so the details are a bit fuzzy.

Actually dry mated the panel facade to the instrument rack/back structure.. and cut holes. Based on what I think I see, I have room on the pax side for another D-100.. We dont have the cashflow for that right now, but what I may do is add a D-100 rack over there before we close it up.. so when the time comes, all i got to do is cut the hole and push it in. Dynon says $30 bux for the aluminum bracket. Seems like the thing to do.

Adding aluminum brackets to the back of the panel here and there, built a shelf behind the pilot's dynon for whatever.. but it interferes a bit with the control yoke play (the yoke shaft rises a bit with elevator travel, by design). The fix is to raise the shelf 1" by inverting some AL angle as an offset. I will likely put relays there.. as well as the other side behind the pax dynon rack when it comes in.

Bought switches - Black plastic auto parts store switches.. but they are rated 20-25 amps, are lighted with LED's and are actually going to run relays, so the current in the switches themselves will be minimal. The reason for the relays - I will use say.. one switch for the engine master, but have 3-4 relays to carry the load of all the components needed - fuel pump, water pump, coils, ECU.. etc.. same thing for avionics master.. Didn't quite get to the point of drilling holes.. we had to sit down and think about how many switches, where they are.. colors for indicators.. Came to a consensus that red light on a switch didn't HAVE to mean a bad indication.. we agreed that a red light on an annunicator WOULD mean bad stuff.. but on the switches, it would be for major/critical items.

We actually mounted the cut panel fascade with the back structure for a dry fit.. and slid in the instruments/radios on hand. Pics below. The items ARE sticking out a bit since we didnt run the screws in

More fine tuning on the upholstery.. that's chris's dept and I will let him update as he see's fit, but we have the majority of the carpet done and its a matter of putting up the interior.

Fuel pump/filter/pressure regulator is dry-fit and ready to be mounted up. Heater hoses are clamped with hose clamps..

Still need to get 1.25" rad hoses, need to come up with a good coil mounting scheme SOMEWHERE. Still need to get an alternator standoff-arm/tension arm (a pair of them actually), since the one that came with it is a tad too short for our overall install

As it stands, the radiator and second oil cooler have a home. The electric water pump has a home, and the Fuel peripherals have their home. Still need to run ducting and place an air filter/intake and also devise an aux fan arrangement for ground use.

Pic 1: panel with goodies
Pic 2: panel with dynon ON, over Chris's Shoulder.. the yoke does not obstruct the dynon or the CDI's. from a functional standpoint
Pic 3: Rad with vice grip mounting.
Pic 4: fuel pump/filter/regulator assembly.

Closer every day.
Work for the next 3 days then back at it.
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Last edited by David Staten : 08-26-2006 at 03:18 AM.
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  #34  
Old 08-26-2006, 11:11 AM
John Slade's Avatar
John Slade John Slade is offline
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Hi Dave,
Ready for some more constructive comments?
Quote:
Black plastic auto parts store switches..
I've had three failures of autostore / radio shack switches. The internal components fell apart. Rating is one thing. Quality of construction is another. Sacrifice a switch and take it apart. See the itty bit of plastic / spring the mechanism depends on. The big heavy switches at B&C are worth the extra.
Quote:
red light on a switch didn't HAVE to mean a bad indication
A red LED on, say a fuel pump, would be very distracting at night.
Quote:
Fuel pump/filter/pressure regulator is dry-fit and ready to be mounted up
Hmmm. A couple of thoughts here. Is that filer before the pumps? There are various debates on this. I think the consensus (if there is one) is to put the filer after the pump to avoid vapor lock. I prefer the redundancy of having a filter for each pump. This saved my ass a couple of times. The pressure regulator normall goes on the return - no? Finally, that Earls filter... is it the bronze "finestered" type or the steel mesh type? I've had issues with the bronze ones - reduced fuel flow due to very fine particle blockage leading to reduced max rpm. One one occasion this sneaked up on me during a flight. Thankfully I had a spare I could switch over to.
Quote:
devise an aux fan arrangement for ground use.
I removed mine. It didnt make any noticable difference on the ground, and it restricted the airfow when airborne. The (primitive) exhaust augmentor handles ground cooling.
Quote:
the radiator and second oil cooler have a home
How are you planning to duct that rad? Naca's on the roof into the aft side? Any way to arrange exhaust augmentation to suck the air through? Try to allow for an alternate air source from the cowl in case of filter blockage. Good plan getting a second oil cooler. Where is it going?
Quote:
The electric water pump has a home
Cool! Are you running the stock water pump in parallel, series, or not at all?

That looks like a T04 flange. I think you're planning NA for now. Should be a interesting exhaust setup. The turbo (when fitted) will need some support.

Looking forward to hearing some Noise
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  #35  
Old 08-26-2006, 11:35 AM
Cozy Girrrl's Avatar
Cozy Girrrl Cozy Girrrl is offline
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I would have many many comments but please remove the rubber tubing from your fuel system.

The more you turn the cooling air the more you will impede its flow, if using NACA inlets its possible for the back pressure to form a hard bubble of air and have the airstream completely bypass the NACA. Unless augmented allow 150% of your inlet area for an outlet of the heated expanding air.

The fewer indicators on in the cockpit the better, a normal status of red makes one complacent to a red indication and more likely to overlook a real red condition.

Good looking intake manifold, who designed/made it?

Yah, and all the stuff John said.

Keep at it, Chrissi
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  #36  
Old 08-26-2006, 12:29 PM
David Staten's Avatar
David Staten David Staten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
Hi Dave,
Ready for some more constructive comments?

Sacrifice a switch and take it apart. See the itty bit of plastic / spring the mechanism depends on. The big heavy switches at B&C are worth the extra.
Noted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
A red LED on, say a fuel pump, would be very distracting at night.
May change this.. Chris and I kicked it around. Just a matter of amber and green switches. Certain switches that aren't continuously on/aux backup kinda stuff would remain red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
Is that filter before the pumps?
Yes.. mesh NOT sintered bronze. I remember your issue with sintered well. I was cognizant of the filter before filter after argument. I actually on plan A had the mesh upstream of the pump with a LARGE element fine filter downstream. I will likely replace the downstream one with another inline (but smaller micron) filter to protect the injectors. I emphasized to Chris when we place the fuel pumps/filters that they need to be on the bottom of the firewall so that we get as much "head pressure" from the sump as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
(regarding fans) I removed mine. It didnt make any noticable difference on the ground, and it restricted the airfow when airborne. The (primitive) exhaust augmentor handles ground cooling. How are you planning to duct that rad? Naca's on the roof into the aft side?
We have obtained and placed armpit scoops on the lower cowl and they will provide ram air flow to the radiator from the bottom. This same plenum will cool the 2nd oil cooler. 2 coolers is a velocity recommendation per plans, with the nose cooler intended to warm the cabin primarily, and cool the engine second. The NACA's on top will be for intake and intercooling (when installed). Armpits will increase cooling drag somewhat. We are willing to accept that penalty at this time.

Cooling fans - my radiator (bought this way on purpose) is a Sirocco style. all water goes to the left across the bottom half, hits the end tank, goes up then all the way across back to the right. By putting a small fan on one side of one half of the radiator, ALL of the coolant water flow can be directed through a fan's blast without obstructing ram air in cruise. We will see if theory plays out for us. I remember the ferrarri fan and you removing it. Your experience played into my decision for this arrangement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
Cool! Are you running the stock water pump in parallel, series, or not at all?
Not at all. EWP only. I know what PL says about em..

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
That looks like a T04 flange. I think you're planning NA for now. Should be a interesting exhaust setup. The turbo (when fitted) will need some support.

Looking forward to hearing some Noise
Exhaust will be Buly style - straight pipe out the back.

Thanks for the feedback.
Dave
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  #37  
Old 08-26-2006, 12:33 PM
David Staten's Avatar
David Staten David Staten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cozy Girrrl
I would have many many comments but please remove the rubber tubing from your fuel system.

The more you turn the cooling air the more you will impede its flow, if using NACA inlets its possible for the back pressure to form a hard bubble of air and have the airstream completely bypass the NACA. Unless augmented allow 150% of your inlet area for an outlet of the heated expanding air.

The fewer indicators on in the cockpit the better, a normal status of red makes one complacent to a red indication and more likely to overlook a real red condition.

Good looking intake manifold, who designed/made it?

Yah, and all the stuff John said.

Keep at it, Chrissi
1) rubber fuel hoses - temporary - cheap and easy for me to make. Never intended to fly them. For flight I plan on having firesleeved lines made. You recommend teflon lined? steel braided?

2) Red indicators - noted.. will get more amber and green..

3) Intake - Mistral, 4 of them sold to rotarians so far.

4) Cooling - Armpit scoops in the lower cowl are primary cooling air source, added on a few months ago. Top NACA's are there, but not lined up for much in the near future - engine air intake.. intercooling in the future.

Keep it comin.. Don't hold back.
Dave
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  #38  
Old 08-26-2006, 01:01 PM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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Dave, Chris

LEDs: I wouldn't want ANY leds on during night flight unless there's an important failure.

Filters: Can you configure it so that each pump has its own filter? Shoot for as close to total redundancy as you can get. You probably already know the arguments against fuel sumps in general.

Location: Having the pump as low as possible is important, but I prefered to have them out of the cowl and away from the heat altogether.
Quote:
EWPs: I know what PL says about em..
PL (Paul Lamar, for those who don't recognize the initials) has discredited himself enough that, IMHO, his arguments should no longer be taken into account when actually DOING something with a rotary.

Quote:
Exhaust will be Buly style - straight pipe out the back.
He copied that from me. There's an SS shroud around the pipe which, as close as possible, forces the suction to extract air from the rad and oil coolers. Everything else needs to be sealed as much as possible to stop it sucking from other possible inlets and bypassing the rads.

Quote:
You recommend teflon lined? steel braided?
Yes. Aeroquip or similar from your local hydraulic hose store, then add firesleeve. (Note: Chris - time do some overtime)
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  #39  
Old 08-26-2006, 03:23 PM
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CBarber CBarber is offline
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Thumbs up

As always thanks for the input. Most of these engine and panel choices have been initiated by Dave while I have been focusing on the airframe and monitoring Daves progress (while relying on and trying to understand the basis for his choices). I will tend to voice the overall goal and Dave has chosen how to implement it. One exception has been the sump. That decision was dictated by Velocity....it is per plans and I have never heard of a problem from either the Velocity list or Velocity, Inc. I have seen the debates on this forum and a couple of list but did not pay particular attention since this particular issue is "per plans" and as I mentioned has not been put forth as a problem (even though the sump in the cabin behind the rear seats/false wall I understand as not being optimal for what I can only assume are mostly obvious reasons. It could not physically be any lower in the airframe). So, blame me on the choice of the sump tank.

It is interesting to see many of y'all's coments, as a number of them have been the exact discussions Dave and I have had......it is reassuring that you too noted some of the same issues. Many, if not most, of the issues I am not married to one way or the other (just want the best choice for us), however, I do wish most options to be explored with something somewhat tangible to help decide one way are another......OR, if it is a choice made on pure emotion or personal preference, I feel better if that too is considered and acknowleded. We/I (don't want to speak for Dave) feel we usually note many possibilities, but, knowing I am falable, that is not always true, I may miss something, we need each other and y'all to note what we may miss. Dave and I can be very close to the problem, it is great to have a "third eye" on the goals. THANKS.

Chrissi, please, don't hold back. We need and value your insight. (may not comply for whatever reason, but the input is GREATLY appreciated)

All the best,

Chris
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Last edited by CBarber : 08-26-2006 at 03:44 PM.
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  #40  
Old 08-26-2006, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
dictated by Velocity....it is per plans and I have never heard of a problem from either the Velocity list or Velocity, Inc. .... did not pay particular attention since this particular issue is "per plans"
Ah, but it's not "per plans" any more once you change the type of fuel delivery, the volume of the flow and the pressure in the system. The Velo system was designed for a low pressure gravity feed system. You're running high pressure pumps at 40 psi with hi flow and returns. Additionaly, I've heard from Velo owner Jim Sower of asymetric flow issues from his personal experience with the stock Velo system. He's have to fly with rudder on to force fuel to flow from one tank or the other, and ended up with a dead engine from running one side dry a few times. The other think I don't like with sumps and return systems is the potential for collection of vapor. Proper venting becomes critical.

I'm not saying it can't be done safely. It has been done and flown without problems. Greg Richter, for example, had a sump tank on his turbo rotary. (Now he needs a chase tanker ). There are just a lot of issues you have to get right. Lots of ground testing under varied conditions - heat soak - deck angle etc. etc. are needed. It would be soooooo nice to have a backup fuel delivery system - maybe a line direct from one tank with its own pump....
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  #41  
Old 08-26-2006, 04:36 PM
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Velocity also provides plan information on the higher pressure units, as this, from what I understand, is not uncommon in the higer end Velo's. We adapted ours from this set of plans which still uses a sump. Also, again, IIRC, the asymetrical flow was due to smaller flow tubing......but I could easily be wrong about this.

This may be one of those times that my preference just happens to lean one way than the other and since the debate continues, I will go with that leaning. Since I may be unable to decern the true better way when the debate may be 49% to 51% (or even 40% to 60%, depending on your perspective/opinion) with ancidotal data both ways. PLUS, this is the way it already is in my bird and that does factor in.

But PLEASE, don't shy away from this type of observation as each time I gain a better understanding from the various camps. I may have made up my mind, but I am very capable of changing it with the right argument and insight.....and since my butt is on the line, I would prefer to see myself as stable/patient/confident and still open to various viewpoints and not just stuborn. Even though this issue is currently pretty much set in stone.........on dang near everything else....well, many things.....feel free to convince me.

All the best,

Chris
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  #42  
Old 08-26-2006, 05:37 PM
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The conti engines have a forced-fuel return line, so the factory does supply plans for this setup, and has several flying examples. I've heard a lot of talk about assemetric flow, but I find that a little suspect if the sump drain and vent lines have been installed and tested to allow for maximum flow, assuming the plane flys ball-centered. I guess I'll see when I start flying. The factory does now recommend installing the 1/2" lines just to be safe, but I think that's probably overkill.

Brett
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  #43  
Old 08-26-2006, 06:02 PM
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CBarber CBarber is offline
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Smile

Thanks Brett for affirming my recolection.

If we didn't want feedback we sure in heck wouldn't post picturs or have a website full of pictures. Please, keep the comentary coming. Even if I/we fail to head your advice, it is still appreciated and ads greatly to the discussion and the decisions made. I don't ever wan't to fall into the trap I see many of my clients (as a lawyer, rarely as a cop) fall into that they are so afraid to make the wrong decision, they make NO decision (my "clients" as a cop, OFTEN make the wrong decision ). Figuratively , I don't want to step over a dollar to pick up a dime.

We are at that critical stage moving from building airplane PARTS, to building an AIRPLANE.

Even though the honorable Mr. Slade is more of a pioneer than I, I would much rather take the arrows on the ground during the planning and testing phases than while cruzing at 10,000 feet. So load up you bows and fire away.

BTW, that big white patch next to the Dynon and over the KX-125 is the space for our second KX-125 Nav/Com. It should be on its way from Eastern Avionics as we speak, it just hasn't arrived yet. As you can see, we should still have room for the second Dynon D-100 on the right of the co-pilot yoke......or, even the smaller D-10a if room becomes a problems down the road. CB/Fuses are slated for under the co-pilot yoke and eyball vents in the uper extreme corners of the panel. FYI.

All the best,

Chris
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Last edited by CBarber : 08-26-2006 at 06:44 PM.
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  #44  
Old 08-27-2006, 01:53 AM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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Quote:
Even though the honorable Mr. Slade is more of a pioneer than I
Only in terms of time Chris. I just went through it before you did, that's all. Doesn't make you're "pioneering" any less exciting. (I think that's the right word ).

Given all the prompting, let me reiterate my suggestion. A simple back-up. An extra fuel line from the tank, filter, pump and T to the rail wouldn't be hard to install at this stage. This way you can test almost any system with confidence knowing you have a reserve system. Just knowing this system is available at the flick of a switch (every time you climb through that infamous "oh shit" zone between 50 and 400 feet) could save you a bunch in underware costs alone.
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  #45  
Old 08-30-2006, 09:32 AM
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Default And a little more..

Since this is essentially from the same week, I am making a short update here.

Two nights ago spent time at the hangar, cut holes for the switches and dry fit most of them. There are still more items that need to be switched, but these are the 1st wave.

Also sanded, primed the panel; cut the hole for the second navcom (which arrived the other day. I had already had things pretty well bolted together when I realized that 2 of the holes drilled a few weeks ago were undersized for the bolts in use. Too tight to get a drill in there. REALLY didn't want to take it all apart to drill out two more holes. The aluminum structure I was using to assemble all this to was soft enough that I was able to hand drill it by twirling the bit in my fingers (about 10 mins a hole).. which was still actually less work than taking the whole dang thing apart (I have nuts in deep channels/hard to reach places, but this thing isn't meant to be disassembled routinely).

Finally got the rack mounted, then added some more back structure to provide points to secure the wiring harness. The KLN-89B and both KX 125's do not have any significant strain relief built into the backs of the plugs, so I am providing a method of my own design to ensure the wires dont flex and break at the crimped connectors.

Today/last night I ended up purchasing a few more switches to ensure that I had green and amber pilot lighted switches for things that were in routine to occasional use, reserving red lights for abnormal use items (backup fuel pump, aux cooling fan). I had brought the panel home and spent most of my time last night doing the wiring on the second KX-125. It seemed to go sooo much quicker on the second one, and looks SOOO much nicer than my first attempt. Makes me want to redo radio #1 - its that much cleaner. Put everything in the rack and snapped a pic. The panel is still in primer. It will either be flat black or flat black with texture... or flat black with nonskid - I have cans of each.. and am leaning towards textured. The nonskid spray can go ontop of the visor to help keep things still if set up there.

I may also have a stab at a navaid devices autopilot secondhand that is being listed on one of the listserv's.. if the seller goes with me, we will have a decent wing leveler/track a/p for a few hundred $.

Only pic:
Panel in primer with goodies in place.
Future expansion - dynon on copilot side, touchscreen flashdrive computer in rack on right middle lower panel - anywhere map with anywhere XM weather - thats the color moving map for us. fuses to go along the bottom right, not drilled yet.
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