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  #31  
Old 11-18-2005, 10:13 PM
dgeronimos
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neverquit
How come I paid $3.20 a yard with online order from AS&S? Is your quote a minimum order or is that the difference from the store price to the mail order. I feel totally ripped off!
I calculated the price per square yard, not linear yard. AS&S peel ply is 4" wider than Econo Ply. Airtech is clearly the best buy, until I see some shipping and/or tax data from fiberglasssupply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neverquit
By the way..... a couple drywall screws (ala the Wayne Hicks method) mouse poo, ceramic tile dust (fuse used as work bench), magic marker and sharpie marks.
Too late. I used Dust's suggestion, with the attached result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neverquit
Get the pump! Use it, when done sell it to a newbie! No wasted time, no loss.
Agreed, I bought a $10 food scale from bed bath and beyond. Did one layup. Don't particulary like the scale.
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  #32  
Old 11-18-2005, 10:19 PM
dgeronimos
 
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Okay, Here's the #1 first attempt, gung-ho, no-nothing but the directions attempt at the 6-ply layup.

I believe the center is "dry" and the edges are correctly saturated?
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  #33  
Old 11-19-2005, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgeronimos
Too late. I used Dust's suggestion, with the attached result.
I'm dyin here, rollin on the floor laughin - heh heh heh heh heh heh - forgot about the dam particle board you used - hate the stuff - don't use it for anything - love the nails - heh heh heh

the layup looks good - from the pic - i can't see any white from a light epoxy layup, but the pic is hard to read.

the edge trim looked great - no bubble up at the edge from too much left hangin off the side.

now for final trimming - may i suggest a router and a flush trim bit and a templet
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  #34  
Old 11-19-2005, 08:07 PM
dgeronimos
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust
the layup looks good - from the pic - i can't see any white from a light epoxy layup, but the pic is hard to read.

the edge trim looked great - no bubble up at the edge from too much left hangin off the side.

now for final trimming - may i suggest a router and a flush trim bit and a templet
This EZ-Poxy that came in the n00b kit is amber colored. It was completely dry cloth on the other side. I figure the temperature was not great for the epoxy to "wet out" the 6 layers of fiberglass.

I'll post today's layup (Which is currently under a hood with 2 1500 watt heaters trying to keep the temp >60) later.

I have a router, but I think I'll used my knift or scissors first.

And if MT is reading: Get to work.

-Danny
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  #35  
Old 11-19-2005, 10:24 PM
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It doesnt look dry in the middle. The white areas look like micro showing through. Perhaps you could have scraped a bit more off or mixed the micro a little thicker.

That left edge on the first pic doesnt look so good to me. Is there air under the glass in that area?

You can't do good, or maybe even acceptible work at 60F. Warm the epoxy to 105F and the shop to at least 70, then use a hair drier and 4 ml plastic over the top of the whole layup. Keep working at it. Before you know it, you'll be an expert.

On flat parts, you might also try laying a board over them (with plastic between) and weighting it down to get a flatter result.

What is that part, by the way? A practice piece?
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  #36  
Old 11-20-2005, 09:39 AM
dgeronimos
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
It doesnt look dry in the middle. The white areas look like micro showing through. Perhaps you could have scraped a bit more off or mixed the micro a little thicker.
This is chapter 3, part 1. There is no micro, just glass 'n epoxy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
That left edge on the first pic doesnt look so good to me. Is there air under the glass in that area?

You can't do good, or maybe even acceptible work at 60F. Warm the epoxy to 105F and the shop to at least 70, then use a hair drier and 4 ml plastic over the top of the whole layup. Keep working at it. Before you know it, you'll be an expert.

On flat parts, you might also try laying a board over them (with plastic between) and weighting it down to get a flatter result.

What is that part, by the way? A practice piece?
Yup, it's in the trash. The glass had never seen epoxy on the bottom.

I asked about some problems I believe I am having to Zeitlan's mailing list. I'm doing the whole kit-'n-kaboodle wrong. I am laying down all 6 plies, then pouring epoxy on top and trying to get it to soak all the way through.

I did a 2nd try last night, but that was before I asked on the mailing list, so I'll try a third time tonight. I built a tent for the bench and I can get the temperature up to 85 while the room stays at 60-65. Short of putting the epoxy in the stove, I don't think I can get it to 105. I'm hearing success stories using a hair dryer while doing the layup. We will see.
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  #37  
Old 11-20-2005, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Short of putting the epoxy in the stove, I don't think I can get it to 105.
Most builders build an insulated hot box, Danny. Put a 60w light bulb inside and it'll get to 105 easily. Once you use the epoxy at 100F+ you'll never want to use it at a lower temp again.
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  #38  
Old 11-20-2005, 11:36 AM
dgeronimos
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
Most builders build an insulated hot box, Danny. Put a 60w light bulb inside and it'll get to 105 easily. Once you use the epoxy at 100F+ you'll never want to use it at a lower temp again.
I did layup #3 today, I put my epoxy cans in front of the heaters while I set everything else up. By the time I was ready to mix epoxy the cans were hot to the touch and the epoxy did flow much, much better.

My heaters can keep the tent at 70-75F while I'm in there working and 85F when I seal it.

Layup #2 and #3 are at www.gehennom.net/~danny/photos
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  #39  
Old 11-20-2005, 12:21 PM
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You're getting better at this, Danny.

That "big bubble" is nothing, and its off the side of the layup anyway.

Now try the plastic on top and squeege with a hair drier.
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  #40  
Old 11-20-2005, 11:25 PM
dgeronimos
 
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This forum is much more encouraging than Marc's mailing list. I've put up new photos of the 4th try. My EZ-Poxy was very hot and it turned into gel before I could do the thrid ply. I'm also out of cups.

I can find and eliminate the big bubbles. The smaller ones are nearly impossible for me. I'll get some plastic and try the 3-ply again tomorrow night with your technique. After all, every day is plane day.
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  #41  
Old 11-20-2005, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
My EZ-Poxy
Ah ha! You didn't mention that you were using EZ-Pox. No wonder you're having trouble getting it to wet out. I hope the EZ Poxy came with the practice kit. Get MGS for the build. You'll love the difference.

Whatever the epoxy type it can gel or even exotherm if it stays in the cup too long when hot. When mixing epoxy hot it's important to spread it on the part quickly.
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  #42  
Old 11-21-2005, 09:21 AM
Wayne Hicks Wayne Hicks is offline
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Danny:

I'm jumping in here a little late, but here's what I see from your layups:

(1) The cloth looks like it's cut on a 90-degree bias. (I think I see the fibers are parallel to the edges.) This is okay for a practice layup, but for a structural layup, you'll want to cut the cloth on a 45 degree bias.

(2) You might try wetting out one layer at a time until you get the hang of it.

(3) Same thing about the plastic peel ply method. The plastic peel ply is a good method, but it might be better to get good at laying up the cloth and perfect your technique with that first. Then progress to peel ply and plastic.

(4) Have the layups been squeegeed? If so, are you using alot of pressure or very little pressure. The white speck look to be on the top fibers of the cloth. This is a sure sign of squeegeeing too hard.

(5) It does sound like you're pumping too much epoxy into the cup. Try limiting it to 5 squirts maximum. Stir that, apply it to the cloth, get it all wetted into the cloth. Then go back for more. Too much epoxy in the cup is a recipe for exotherm.

(6) 105 degrees is too hot for EZ-Poxy, unless you use small batches as per #4. 90 degrees is more like it. Also, there are two types of hardener, a slow and a fast. I use all slow. (The hardeners CANNOT be mixed like MGS.)

(7) Go easy on the heat gun. I use a heat gun just to keep the epoxy and the surface warm. "Warm" is being able to hold your hand a foot away from the gun. "Hot" is when you can't keep your hand there. "Hot" is alos when the peel ply starts shrinking and curling!

Yes, Carl Denk can be rather blunt, but he never minces words when it comes to a builder's safety. He has only your health in mind. His suggestion to find an experienced builder is a great one. Two hours with an experienced builder can save you 200 hours of frustration, give you confidence, and get you going on the right foot.

If you'd like some know-how, tell us where you live. I'm sure we can round up someone!
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  #43  
Old 11-21-2005, 09:50 AM
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OK - i'm a man of many words, but simple ones.

1 use slow epoxy

2 mix it thoroughly - we always mix for at least a minute buy the CLOCK

3 Dump it out on the glass fast - thin film epoxy works a long time - a cup exotherms, by dump i mean dribble all over

4 one layer at a time.

5 over wet the lower layer and on the top layer - lay the cloth down nice and flat - go take a moment break, say half a smoke, come back and it will be wet out for you, if not, add a little heat from a hair drier with a squeegee. over wet does not mean 1/4 inch epoxy, it means like a wash cloth sort of squeezed out

6 call me if you want

7 keep us informed
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  #44  
Old 11-21-2005, 11:49 AM
rutanfan rutanfan is offline
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Daniel. One thing I highly recommend is that you purchase the Rutan Composites Video.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...vid_rutan1.php

I have a slew composite videos and this is by far the best and most practical related to the building of your aircraft.

Also, two pointers that I don’t think anyone has mentioned are as follows:

First: You can always make a lay-up on a piece of aluminum foil (use the thick kind). When you’ve make the appropriate lay-up, sandwich it between another piece of aluminum foil, then cut to the exact dimensions needed. Typically this would be impossible, but when sandwiched between two pieces of aluminum foil, you can carry the lay-up without distortion. This works great for otherwise difficult lay-ups. I did this while attaching the NG-30 to the fuselage a few days ago. Peel off one side of the aluminum foil, then place the lay-up on the part and squeegee over the aluminum foil on the outside surface. Then peel off the remaining foil and stipple any air bubbles… Not really practical for standard lay-ups, but it works great for those hard to do lay-ups on vertical or inverted parts.

Second: Get the Dritz Electric Scissors.

http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog...891/index.html

These little gems allow you to scissor trim while the part is freshly laid up. (No waiting up till 2:00 am so you can trim.) Also prevents those annoying scissor snags that always plague my cuts.
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Last edited by rutanfan : 11-21-2005 at 05:29 PM.
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  #45  
Old 11-21-2005, 12:30 PM
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no need to sandwich - we constantly do layups on the bench on plastic covered butcher paper - cut to size that we marked before the layup with a sharpie and then scissor cut.
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Enjoy the build,njut av byggandet, godere il costruire, nyd bygningen, geniesse den Bau, apolafse tin kataskevi, disfrute la construcción, curta a construção, Pidä hauskaa rakentamisen parissa, bouw lekker,uživaj grade?inaslajdaites postroikoi, geniet die bou
dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
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