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  #46  
Old 11-21-2005, 05:24 PM
rutanfan rutanfan is offline
Ray V.
 
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I like it sandwiched because it's not as messy, and in my opinion easier to cut. Just a personal preference. I can also markup the foil without transferring any marker to the resin. Not sure this is an issue, but I like to be safe.
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  #47  
Old 11-21-2005, 05:56 PM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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Quote:
we constantly do layups on the bench on plastic covered butcher paper
Some use aluminum, some butcher paper, some plastic. Dust, as always, strikes a happy compromise.

It all seems to work.

Me? I like plastic both sides mostly, but aluminum is great for tricky shapes, like inside the wing root.
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  #48  
Old 11-21-2005, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
like inside the wing root.
you had to bring it up - you had to bring up bad memories - THE WORST LAYUP EVER and we did 4 of them
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  #49  
Old 11-21-2005, 08:03 PM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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THE WORST LAYUP EVER and we did 4 of them
Wasn't it fun!
Jeff Russel used to stand the wing on it's end and do it from the balcony.
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  #50  
Old 11-21-2005, 08:36 PM
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1286 1286 is offline
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Danny,

Let me say it again, You are welcome any time!

I had already pm'd Danny and told him he would be welcome to come down! It's only a 2 hr drive and he said he might be able to get his Dad to fly him here. I will be willing to pick you up at the airport. It is very important that you get comfortable before you make parts.

Bob
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  #51  
Old 11-21-2005, 09:25 PM
Kraig Kraig is offline
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Danny,

Don't get discouraged. By the time you get to the landing gear bulkheads in Chapter 4 you will be a pro.

Here's my suggestions, which will only add to the others.

Get a pump. I cannot imagine weighing my batches every time. I like to work with three or four squirts at a time, which is less than 1/2" in the cup you are using. Exotherm is not as big a problem because you get it out of the cup and onto your layup fairly quickly. Once it is out of the cup, you have loads of time to work it. Using all slow hardner with this amount you have about 20 minutes in the cup and about an hour out on the layup.

Build a hot box, for the pump. My epoxy is always at 95 degrees and always ready to use. PM me and I will send you how I did mine.

Use MGS and all slow. I am not in a hurry to get back and trim my layups BECAUSE.....I use the Dritz sissors. I again cannot imagine building this plane without them.. I love using them to blaze thru cutting the cloth in preperation for a layup, no distortion of the cloth when cutting and some layups require many individual pcs. (f-22 both sides come to mind?, or how about the 24-28 layers for the hardpoints). But the best use of the Drits sissors is for trimming wet layers right to the edge of the foam. This is so cool, and what a time saver when it comes to finishing a part, let alone getting it ready for vacumn bagging if you so choose.

In the beginning, don't be concerned about getting too much epoxy on your layup. I think we are so concerned about having a heavy part right off the bat, that we torture ourselves with dry layups, bubbles everywhere, and edges that don't lay down. My suggestion for practicing layups is to drown the first layer, (don't flame me yet, just follow along), squeegee the epoxy around real wet. Add the next layer of cloth, use your squeegee to smooth it out, and wait a little bit. I don't smoke, so about enough time to stretch, read a bit in the plans, make sure you are doing things in the correct order and not forgetting anything. Now, dribble a little more epoxy on the dry spots and move the wet epoxy around on the layup with your squeegee. Dont worry about pressing out excess epoxy yet, just smooth out the cloth, This will usually get out all the bubbles, and get all the cloth properly wetted. By the way, if you are doing a real layup, now is the time to run the Dritz sissors counterclockwise around the foam and trim the edges. This part is so cool, not more than three layers of cloth between trimming. Keep doing this untill you are thru with the layers. If you get a stubborn bubble, stipple it. I do not stipple very much, and you will get good at this too.

OK, just to let you know that I am not going to have a 10,000 lb. plane by using too much epoxy. If you learn by doing it this way, you will get real good at properly wetting out the individual layers of cloth every time by using the correct amount of epoxy. You are not going to continue to drown every layer, you will find the right amount by having success instead of fighing the bubbles or dry spots because you are going to get very proficient at developing good techniques, and not fret about dry spots, etc. By the time you get to the landing gear bulkheads, you will probably be using the correct amount of epoxy every time and not having any trouble. We all learn more and get better on every layup, every layer of cloth on a layup. I know this because it has worked for me and I am no expert. What I am is amazed at how good my layups look in such a short amount of time into the build, and how much I have learned from doing. Also, especially from following and reading this forum, how much confidence I have. Most importantly, how much darn fun I am having doing it.

So, just practice a little more, build and get some basic shop stuff and tools, and start building. You won't get anywhere doing practice layups forever, and if you have to redo a few bulkheads or a seatback in chapter 4, you are in very good company.

Enjoy the BUILD!!!

Man, was I long winded or what?

Kraig
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  #52  
Old 11-21-2005, 10:20 PM
dgeronimos
 
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Sorry guys, I clamped layup#3 onto my floor jack and was busy bouncing on it like a diving board.

Where to start?

Pics of layup #5 are up. New things today are:
1) A drop light
2) A real squeege

It is only a two ply piece. Much to the delight of my wife, I have used all the EZ-Poxy resin. I'm not sure why they gave me a quart of resin and hardner. The ratio is 100:44 by weight.

I checked my MGS bottles and I do have the fast hardner. I'll go exchange them for the slow tomorrow.

Lastly, the EAA does not meets Saturdays, which rules out a trip to Al-Bany this weekend. I'm expecting to get my tech advisor there and show and discuss my layups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Hicks
(1) The cloth looks like it's cut on a 90-degree bias. (I think I see the fibers are parallel to the edges.) This is okay for a practice layup, but for a structural layup, you'll want to cut the cloth on a 45 degree bias.
Correct. Baby steps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Hicks
(2) You might try wetting out one layer at a time until you get the hang of it.
That's sooo 3 layups ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Hicks
(4) Have the layups been squeegeed? If so, are you using alot of pressure or very little pressure. The white speck look to be on the top fibers of the cloth. This is a sure sign of squeegeeing too hard.
Up until layup 5, I was using a nylon scraper. Aside from general suckiness, it would also rip the individual fibers up. I have a rubber one now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Hicks
(5) It does sound like you're pumping too much epoxy into the cup. Try limiting it to 5 squirts maximum. Stir that, apply it to the cloth, get it all wetted into the cloth. Then go back for more. Too much epoxy in the cup is a recipe for exotherm
Squirt? No, I just kept increasing the amount I was using until it exothermed. How much is "too much"? Now I know. I can play hockey with my epoxy puck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Hicks
Yes, Carl Denk can be rather blunt, but he never minces words when it comes to a builder's safety. He has only your health in mind. His suggestion to find an experienced builder is a great one. Two hours with an experienced builder can save you 200 hours of frustration, give you confidence, and get you going on the right foot.
I'm sure Carl is very passionate about building. I don't know what he was thinking when he wrote those two emails. Maybe he thought I was building a spar for an airbus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Hicks
If you'd like some know-how, tell us where you live. I'm sure we can round up someone!
I live in McDonough, GA. Just like it says. You can also see me on the map, although the image is older than my house, the pin is where I live.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1286
Danny,

Let me say it again, You are welcome any time!

I had already pm'd Danny and told him he would be welcome to come down! It's only a 2 hr drive and he said he might be able to get his Dad to fly him here. I will be willing to pick you up at the airport. It is very important that you get comfortable before you make parts.
I'll come down sometime.
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  #53  
Old 11-22-2005, 12:07 AM
Wayne Hicks Wayne Hicks is offline
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MacDonalds? McDonough? Which is it?
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  #54  
Old 11-22-2005, 11:20 PM
dgeronimos
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Hicks
MacDonalds? McDonough? Which is it?
McDonough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
Ah ha! You didn't mention that you were using EZ-Pox. No wonder you're having trouble getting it to wet out. I hope the EZ Poxy came with the practice kit. Get MGS for the build. You'll love the difference.
It's amazing. Just wow.
Wow-ee. Wowzers.
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  #55  
Old 11-25-2005, 06:43 PM
dgeronimos
 
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No practice for two days? NOT TRUE! Many productive things:
1) MGS 6-ply layup with 4-mil plastic lining.
2) Made a 1" long slash on my left palm from the extra epoxy on said layup.
3) Introduction to microballons, followed by:
4) Introduction to goggles and mask.
5) Introduction to UNI.
6) Introduction to "slurry"
7) Foam slice 'n dice
8) Painting on slurry

I made the confidence piece. It's been in the hotbox (70-80F) for about 20 hrs now. It is knife trimmed. I really had to stipple the area where the foam sits on the glass. In this case, the squeege would pull the glass away from the foam. The new questions are:

1) When do you know how much micro is enough? I painted my foam until it was white, then squeeged off what I thought was excess.
2) When I squeeged the foam piece, I watched my white micro slide off the foam and ride the epoxy out of the layup. The foam piece looks like it has NO micro now. It doesn't seem correct, is it?
3) Both plastic sizes I have used (4-mil and 1-mil) seem to wrinkle back up after I squeege them smooth. It does not cause bubbles, but it does mean I have to sand the final piece. Oh.... I'm betting a layer of peel ply fixes that?
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  #56  
Old 11-25-2005, 07:22 PM
dgeronimos
 
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I just realized that there is an EAA meeting every saturday around here!
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  #57  
Old 11-25-2005, 07:45 PM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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Quote:
When do you know how much micro is enough?
When you can't get any more off.
Quote:
I watched my white micro slide off the foam and ride the epoxy out of the layup. The foam piece looks like it has NO micro now
Probably OK, but not ideal. Sounds like the micro was too thin. Try making it thicker.
Quote:
Both plastic sizes I have used (4-mil and 1-mil) seem to wrinkle back up after I squeege them smooth
If you have the stuff with folds it'll do that. Just ignore it. You have to sand the part before bonding anyway. If it really bothers you, get the 3 or 4 mil in rolls with no fold. Peel ply under the plastic will fix this to some extent, but it's not really needed.
Quote:
there is an EAA meeting every saturday around here
Great. See what's going on there... but you'll be lucky if you get more than questioning looks when you mention micro or flox. If you are lucky there'll be a composite builder there.
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  #58  
Old 11-25-2005, 08:59 PM
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Steve parkins Steve parkins is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgeronimos
2) When I squeegeed the foam piece, I watched my white micro slide off the foam and ride the epoxy out of the layup. The foam piece looks like it has NO micro now. It doesn't seem correct, is it?'
it sounds like you just said, you put on micro then glass, wet out and as you worked off the extra epoxy it pulled off the micro and mixed the two,so you got what looked like a white fog under the glass ?
so if that is the case,no big deal now, you get lots better as you do more. the micro is for filling the holes with light wight epoxy,and it helps hold things in place,if you over do it to the point that the glass is full of glass ball,the lay-up will not be as strong as it could be. but as john said,no biggie
hicks once said we get 80% from the glass and 20% from the epoxy,so if you add 1% micro the the epoxy, you will fall out of the sky.....ok not really you will lose .0001 from what you could have.
i think you mite be putting the micro on to lean, so when you add in the epoxy it gets to wet and rises up. In the start it said i think to add 3 parts glass balls to one part epoxy. this sounds dry but how close to that are you? if all the gloss is gone from the mix,that is very dry and we use that for filling, so you need less that that. at the start of my build i didn't know micro from flox, so i used flox to fill the holes on my seat back and boy did it hold you going down a very cool road,hit a bump now and then,but the scenery is beautiful,and be for long you will miss all the bump and just pick on me in your spair time now i need some pics from you to play with so you can be added to my wall of shame
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  #59  
Old 11-25-2005, 09:26 PM
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Steve parkins Steve parkins is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgeronimos
I just realized that there is an EAA meeting every saturday around here!
and i just realized you are 15.....
i think i will make you my NEW HIRO
685 jelice members will be looking at you wishing and hoping you the best of the best of luck in what most will say, is impossible.
but dont you believe it(we just say that because we waited 30 extra years) look at it this way......you got a 30 year head start on most of us.

it brings a big smile to this face just thinking back to my 3 year in high school. there you'll be sitting in the lunch room looking over at your best Friend, saying (just loud enough for the 20 or so on lookers to hear)....
18 chapters done,7 more to go !
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  #60  
Old 11-25-2005, 10:15 PM
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Dust Dust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve parkins
and i just realized you are 15.....
i think i will make you my NEW HIRO
Steve - i think either your right leg or your left leg is now quite a bit longer than the other leg
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dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
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