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  #16  
Old 07-28-2007, 12:39 PM
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jimbus jimbus is offline
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Default Re: Oshkosh 2007!!!

Here are some additional photos of Jack's ERacer. There are no lower winglets. The ERacer design doesn't have lower winglets.

Marc Z's presentation of Jack Morrison's Blended Winglet modification talked about the performance of this mod. According to Jack, the modification netted him a 10 knot gain in virtually all throttle settings, without any other changes in handling characteristics, including his low speed handling and stall.

Marc also gave the OPINION that this modification would not be advised for the Cozy MK IV. Hopefully, Marc will add this presentation to his Unofficial Cozy MK IV website. It was very interesting and informative.
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  #17  
Old 07-28-2007, 01:50 PM
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Default Re: Oshkosh 2007!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbus View Post

Marc also gave the OPINION that this modification would not be advised for the Cozy MK IV. Hopefully, Marc will add this presentation to his Unofficial Cozy MK IV website. It was very interesting and informative.
Marc, I am not trying to be argumentative just wondering why this mod is not recommended for the cozy MKIV? It sure looks amazing can you tell us more about the nav lights on the tips are those custom?
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  #18  
Old 07-28-2007, 08:36 PM
Drew Swenson Drew Swenson is offline
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Default Re: Oshkosh 2007!!!

Nat thought it would look cool too----his original MKIV did not have lower winglets-----and it also had a longer canard. Flight testing showed a severely limited aft CG envelope. Putting the lower winglets back on gained some of that back. Cutting the canard down, got back the rest.
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  #19  
Old 07-28-2007, 08:59 PM
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Dennis Passey Dennis Passey is offline
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Default Re: Oshkosh 2007!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Marc, I am not trying to be argumentative just wondering why this mod is not recommended for the cozy MKIV?
Welllll...Nats says, The loss of the lower winglets would, due to the ratio of length to stock current width, vs the lifting body effect and the c.g range,etc all things MarkIV considered, contribute to major loss of performance in the aircraft- according to Nat.
Thats why Nat did the thorough testing through the ranges and changes to the airframe will translate through to other considerations in the proven performance. [But he told me that on the phone so you can't really verify that.] Also...He did this just to piss everyone off, but keep his bacon out of the fire, and said if you do do it- good friggin luck in slow speed performance. Just cuz its on one canard- doesn't mean it can be on any canard.... I'm glad the old guy's gone, all he did was rain on peoples parades.

But thats all just his OPINION...and Marcs OPINION...and Riley's OPINION[I think I remember that]...so don't let those guyz "opinions" sway you...,.all you gotta do is build your wings that way and test them...
Its just your time...and skin.
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  #20  
Old 07-28-2007, 10:14 PM
Drew Swenson Drew Swenson is offline
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Default Re: Oshkosh 2007!!!

Actually the effects of the lower winglet on the MKIV are fact (not opinion)---proven out by flight test (as you mentioned). The effects of lower winglets on other aircraft (even similar aircraft), would be "opinion" until flight tested (lower winglets on and lower winglets off).

The lower winglets also serve as a sacrificial piece of fiberglass in the event you scrape a wing on the ground. Actually happened to me on takeoff in a Longez. Even though I have about a 1000 hours in canards, I still managed to smack a wing into the pavement---just a small scrape on the lower winglet (as opposed to a scrap on the crucial layup schedule that holds the winglet on).
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  #21  
Old 07-28-2007, 10:26 PM
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Default Re: Oshkosh 2007!!!

Nat .... Is this the same guy that built his prototype from fiberglass he pulled from a dumpster?
Yeah ... you may get a wobble warning at low speed which is more than you get with the lower winglet.

Build it like you want it Drew. You can always flight test it and if you don't like the flight characteristics ..... add them back.

My build won't have lower winglets.
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  #22  
Old 07-28-2007, 11:20 PM
Ron Springer Ron Springer is offline
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Default Re: Oshkosh 2007!!!

It might be tempting to try blended winglets on a Cozy Mark IV, but if this is done as part of an initial build, do you really want to perform testing that flirts with deep stall when you have little to no experience flying one yet? Nat had plenty of experience but he still contracted out his deep stall testing. You would definitely also need to build a professional adjustable CG system like Nat did for his testing.

If someone decides to try and prove out blended winglets on a Cozy Mark IV, I certainly hope that it is someone with a lot of time in type so that they can easily recognize the onset of deep stall and get out of it.
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  #23  
Old 07-29-2007, 01:07 AM
chasingmars chasingmars is offline
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Default Re: Oshkosh 2007!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMann View Post
My build won't have lower winglets.
Yes, but your build is a Long-EZ, not a Cozy...
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  #24  
Old 07-29-2007, 01:27 AM
rviglierchio rviglierchio is offline
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Default Winglets....?

Is this the right place for this discussion? Seems like what started it here....

I've been sitting in the hangar staring at my Long EZ winglets wondering a couple things:
1. Could the tops be improved by an NXT type sweep?
2. Could the bottoms be improved with any smoothing curves? The angular design of the lower winglets seems awkward, but may well have been intentional.
That E-Racer with the sweet winglets and fabulous edge paint is on to something but I understand the need for the lower winglets to stop some air flowing off the swept wing. What do you folks think.......?
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  #25  
Old 07-29-2007, 02:02 AM
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Dennis Passey Dennis Passey is offline
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Default Re: Oshkosh 2007!!!

For those that don't know me...my post was dripping with the 'S' word...



Sarcasm



I think the old feller, was great...cautious...and rightly so as he wanted a safe ,fasssst plane for great appeal...and a great job he did.
My ONLY gripe is that he named it a 'cozy'...should have given it a sexier name.

Amen to Ron's comments ad infinitum....
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  #26  
Old 07-29-2007, 02:33 AM
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Default Re: Oshkosh 2007!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Passey View Post
My ONLY gripe is that he named it a 'cozy'...should have given it a sexier name.
I agree "Cozy" just doesn't fit. Should have had a name like Millenium Falcon or Death Star.

I love the blended winglets but my boys are not big enough to test them out on my Jedi Starfighter.

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  #27  
Old 07-30-2007, 12:20 AM
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Dennis Passey Dennis Passey is offline
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Default Re: Oshkosh 2007!!!

I think everbody [whos building a IV] should just shorten the name to..

Mark IV.

A guy you meet...wants to find out about your plane. You say..."I'm building a Mark IV".
You pull a picture out of your wallet. [or bring it up on your PDA]
"Oh yea. thats a pretty cool airplane, I think I saw something like it at an air show once. Looks like one of those Cozys"..
" Yea, Its a Cozy, but we call it a Mark IV cuz thats what it is...theres more than one Cozy type"

Kind of like-if you were to say you're building a Buick-well theres a lot of different types of Buick.

Man, I hate the name Coaaazzzzssssyyyy..... yech.....

But everybody's gotta stop using the name 'Cozy'- and that will die hard.
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  #28  
Old 07-30-2007, 05:06 PM
Phil Kriley Phil Kriley is offline
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Default Re: Oshkosh 2007!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Passey View Post
I think everbody [whos building a IV] should just shorten the name to..

Mark IV.

A guy you meet...wants to find out about your plane. You say..."I'm building a Mark IV".
You pull a picture out of your wallet. [or bring it up on your PDA]
"Oh yea. thats a pretty cool airplane, I think I saw something like it at an air show once. Looks like one of those Cozys"..
" Yea, Its a Cozy, but we call it a Mark IV cuz thats what it is...theres more than one Cozy type"

Kind of like-if you were to say you're building a Buick-well theres a lot of different types of Buick.

Man, I hate the name Coaaazzzzssssyyyy..... yech.....

But everybody's gotta stop using the name 'Cozy'- and that will die hard.
I'm in! I'm now building a Mark IV!
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  #29  
Old 07-30-2007, 05:13 PM
Phil Kriley Phil Kriley is offline
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Default Re: Oshkosh 2007!!!

Big thanks to Marc Zeitlin for letting us sit in his Cozy and for the GREAT presentations he did at Oshkosh! Thanks also to Mark Beduhn and his family for the cookout and to the Leutz's (sp?) for hosting the dinner Friday night! That prime rib was WONDERFUL!

Thanks also to all the Cozy pilots who flew in - it was really inspiring! Workshop - here I come!
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  #30  
Old 07-30-2007, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Oshkosh 2007!!!

when i went there, i tried to find just one guy
2000 miles one way....found the luncheon but no guy
2 years later i find a pic at someones web page and there he is with me !
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