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  #1  
Old 11-05-2007, 10:28 AM
DrewChaplin's Avatar
DrewChaplin DrewChaplin is offline
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Default Making Plane Parts

I thought I start a more appropriately named thread to document my progress.

I prepped the foam for the seatback, F-22, & F-28 over the weekend. It rained solidly so I waited until today to slop epoxy.

So TONIGHT I laid the first epoxy in the plane! (where's the backflipping smilie?)

Total time from mixing the first batch of micro to final cleanup was just about 2 hours.

I was surprised how much epoxy is took to wet up everything. I'm awaiting the rebuild kit for the epoxy pump, so I'm stuck using a scale and plastic bottles. Between the confidence layup and the seatback, I've gone threw .75 liter. I'm using a 1 liter bottle. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, the seat back is a reasonable size. It's probably more physiological than anything. It seems strange to already needed to refill the bottle. It probably won't be an issue if I started using the pump.


Someone suggested that I make the micro thick to fill up the open cell foam. The plans says micro slurry should be equal parts microballoons and epoxy. I think I mixed at least two parts balloons to one part epoxy.

The layup went fine. I thought I was close to finishing when I applied a little more heat. I squeegeed and took off some more epoxy. Actually too much epoxy, the glass went dry. So back on with a little epoxy. I didn't realize how easy it would be over squeegee a part, especially with heat.

I peel-plied the entire layup. It was a little tricky to get it laid out without any wrinkles. After it was lightly wetted out, I covered it in plastic wrap. Then placedt a piece of plywood on top and threw several things on it for weight. We'll see how it turns out tomorrow.


After everything was cleaned up, I cut the glass for f-22 & f-28. The foam is ready and I should be able to do the layups tomorrow.
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Drew
---
SN 1200
Celebrating four years of NOT building.

You are buildin a dam airplane from scratch and you do not know what you are doin!!!! - Dust

-Inspired by Burt, designed by Nat, built by me. (Hopefully)

www.Cozy1200.com - just pics and misc ramblings
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  #2  
Old 11-05-2007, 10:50 AM
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Dust Dust is offline
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Default Re: Making Plane Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewChaplin View Post
Someone suggested that I make the micro thick to fill up the open cell foam. The plans says micro slurry should be equal parts microballoons and epoxy. I think I mixed at least two parts balloons to one part epoxy.

Then placedt a piece of plywood on top and threw several things on it for weight. We'll see how it turns out tomorrow.
Yeah - the seat back foam has large cells - you can use thicker micro for it

Careful on the weight - i've seen it press epoxy out - some - not too much

You have one piece now - it'll take you years to get back to one piece, then it will be a plane!
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Enjoy the build,njut av byggandet, godere il costruire, nyd bygningen, geniesse den Bau, apolafse tin kataskevi, disfrute la construcción, curta a construção, Pidä hauskaa rakentamisen parissa, bouw lekker,uživaj grade?inaslajdaites postroikoi, geniet die bou
dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
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  #3  
Old 11-06-2007, 10:12 AM
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DrewChaplin DrewChaplin is offline
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Default Re: Making Plane Parts

Today was a public holiday. Something about a horse race.

Our washer/dryer combo died today, so I worked on it for a couple hours and found a transistor on the circuit board was blown. So it looks like we'll be shopping this weekend. :sad:

I removed the peel-ply from the seatback to what I thought was pretty good layup. On closer inspection I think I found a few air bubbles at the angled area. I didn't think it was that tight of an angle. I wonder if the weight of the hanging cloth pull it up. It looks like I'll be injecting some epoxy soon. Other than that I'm pretty happy with the layup.

I wanted something else to be curing while I prep the other side of the seatback so I did the layup on F22 & F28. Again about 2 hours from first micro to cleanup. This time I did use John's plastic peel-ply technique; I'M SOLD. It was so easy to chase bubbles out. I was amazed at how little micro was needed this time. I didn't realize the different type was foam would need such a range of micro, but not it makes sense.

As you can see I did not cut the bulkhead foam down to the correct size. I'll be using the router & template technique. The templates were made up a couple months ago.

After supper I turned my attention back to the seatback. I used the Fein to remove the excess glass. Then turned it over and sanded the edges and cut the flox triangles into the edges. Using a cone Dremel bit made short work of sanding the backside of the glass in the triangle. The bit would remind you of the Permagrit bits, but I think it's carbide tipped.

With the Fein being so easy to use and cut, I'm going to want until AFTER I've don't the second layup to cut the corners and electrical channel. I may even hold off until I'm ready to fit it into the fuse.

Glass, Peel-ply, and plastic are all cut and ready for the next layup.
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__________________
Drew
---
SN 1200
Celebrating four years of NOT building.

You are buildin a dam airplane from scratch and you do not know what you are doin!!!! - Dust

-Inspired by Burt, designed by Nat, built by me. (Hopefully)

www.Cozy1200.com - just pics and misc ramblings

Last edited by DrewChaplin : 11-06-2007 at 10:21 AM.
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  #4  
Old 11-06-2007, 10:37 AM
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Default Re: Making Plane Parts

I doubt the weight did it, maybe the plastic? dun know
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dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
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  #5  
Old 11-06-2007, 10:26 PM
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neverquit neverquit is offline
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Default Re: Making Plane Parts

Drew if you don't put a good radius on those darn corners you'll get a bubble on the corner every time. That plastic is a great way to go. A good way to do it too is give it a hit with the heat gun or hair dryer before you squeegee or smooth it out. I like to smooth it out with a wadded paper towel. Same with the peel ply. Only because you have that epoxy gook on your gloves and it sticks a bit while you're doing it.
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  #6  
Old 11-06-2007, 11:06 PM
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Steve parkins Steve parkins is offline
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Default Re: Making Plane Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewChaplin View Post
Today was a public holiday. Something about a horse race.

Our washer/dryer combo died today, so I worked on it for a couple hours and found a transistor on the circuit board was blown. So it looks like we'll be shopping this weekend. :sad:

I removed the peel-ply from the seatback to what I thought was pretty good layup. On closer inspection I think I found a few air bubbles at the angled area. I didn't think it was that tight of an angle. I wonder if the weight of the hanging cloth pull it up. It looks like I'll be injecting some epoxy soon. Other than that I'm pretty happy with the layup.

I wanted something else to be curing while I prep the other side of the seatback so I did the layup on F22 & F28. Again about 2 hours from first micro to cleanup. This time I did use John's plastic peel-ply technique; I'M SOLD. It was so easy to chase bubbles out. I was amazed at how little micro was needed this time. I didn't realize the different type was foam would need such a range of micro, but not it makes sense.

As you can see I did not cut the bulkhead foam down to the correct size. I'll be using the router & template technique. The templates were made up a couple months ago.

After supper I turned my attention back to the seatback. I used the Fein to remove the excess glass. Then turned it over and sanded the edges and cut the flox triangles into the edges. Using a cone Dremel bit made short work of sanding the backside of the glass in the triangle. The bit would remind you of the Permagrit bits, but I think it's carbide tipped.

With the Fein being so easy to use and cut, I'm going to want until AFTER I've don't the second layup to cut the corners and electrical channel. I may even hold off until I'm ready to fit it into the fuse.

Glass, Peel-ply, and plastic are all cut and ready for the next layup.
mine will say built in USA.........
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  #7  
Old 11-07-2007, 08:33 AM
argoldman argoldman is offline
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Default Re: Making Plane Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewChaplin View Post

As you can see I did not cut the bulkhead foam down to the correct size. I'll be using the router & template technique. The templates were made up a couple months ago.
Been there, done that.

What an ungodly mess!!! When I did it, I mounted a vacuum over the router bit and that wasn't enough.

Although the parts came out beautifully, I think that I should have just traced the shape on the lay-ups, cut them out with a band saw (metal cutting blade) and finished them on the belt sander.

If I had to do it again, I would definitely NOT go the router route. (try a scrap piece before you commit--- or get committed)
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  #8  
Old 11-07-2007, 10:01 AM
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DrewChaplin DrewChaplin is offline
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Default Re: Making Plane Parts

Holy Cow, where do I start.

First I pull the peel-ply off F-22 & F-28. Both turned out real nice. I'm pleased. I am going buy some butcher paper for covering layups before weighting them down. I've been using industrial rolls of cling wrap (the stuff they wrap pallets with) to protect my plywood. The problem is no matter how careful you are, it always wrinkles a little. Especially were it touches other plastic. These wrinkles show up in the final part. Nothing that needs repair, but the part isn't as smooth as it could be.

Second, I HATE FLOX CORNERS! It took me between 30 minutes and an hour to put flox in the corners of the seatback. WHAT THE TRICK to putting flox in the corners? The best method I found was to put a blob on a squeegee and use a stiring stick to push it into the corner. Then go back and carefully squeegee off the excess careful not pull it away from the glass or foam. It's wasn't easy and I kept having to go back and touch some up. I still think I ended up with a few few air bubbles where the flox wasn't completely up against the inside edge of the foam.

So finally I got to what I thought was acceptably floxed corners. Then I went on to the micro. I made what I thought was a huge batch of micro, but nope, I need more. The center was not a problem, but what's the trick when working close to flox and how close do you get? On one edge I barely touched the flox and pulled out several chunks. I worked careful to get micro up close to the flox, but it simply took forever.

Onto the one layer of bid. Should be simple. Big batch of epoxy, oops need more again. A few spots don't want to wet out so add a little heat and squeegee. Well gotta get that edges to hang properly, so mix more epoxy and wet all the edges. Finally the layup looks reasonably good. Put on the peel-ply and add a little more epoxy. I realize now it was probably too little and suck some out of the layup. Squeegee the epoxy around and add a little more heat to wet it out. Now add the plastic, and squeegee more to remove some air bubbles. There's a few bubbles near where the two plies overlay each over. Squeegee a little more with some heat. A few small bubbles near the flox. I keep working it trying to get rid of the small bubbles out. The problem was I kept adding heat. I'm learning MGS 285 wets out so well that heat alone can also make if almost flow right out of the layup making it dry.

No I've got a bunch of airbubbles from what I believe is me over working the layup. So I lift the peel-ply add some more epoxy and stipple with some heat. I can definitely tell the layup is beginning to get stiff. A lot more work and finally it's back to a reasonable state. A few small bubbles, but it's as good as it's going to get. Finally time to move on.

Hmm. Amy already went to bed. She has been coming out to help stretch out the industrial cling-wrap and and carefully lay in on the layup. Let's see how I can do this by myself. Well there plastic already on the layup with a bit of epoxy. So I pull out about a foot of wrap and carfully lay the roll on the layup. Then stick the cling wrap down to the table and start of the layup. "Gee this works great" as I unroll the cling wrap. I hear some plastic poping and cracking. Oh that must be the airbubble between the plastic and the cling wrap. Move over and do it again.

One last look before I weigh it down and this is when I realize I shot myself in the banana. The popping sound was the plastic sticking to the roll of clingwarp. The problem is it is the side that rolling up and away from the layup. Not only did is suck up the cling-wrap, but also the plastic, the peel-ply, and the glass. There are now tones of airbubbles and lifted glass all over the layup. Many of them in different layers. Some under the glass, some between the glass and peel-ply, others between the peel-ply and plastic. So I spent another hour pushing the bubbles together. As this point I see no other options. The layup has the correct amout of epoxy, it just has trapped air-pockets, no dry spots. So finally I poke a few small holes to push the air out. I think I got all the big one and pushed out most of the small ones. I'll now more tomorrow. ...and I know NOT to do that again!


So I think I've finally learned to not worry about mixing up too much epoxy or getting it just right. It fairly easy to remove the excess and DON'T overwork it! It's good to know that I should be able to fix any screwup and learn from it. I just learned a lot in a 4 hour out layup that should have taken 2.


I hope you all get a laugh out of this. I learn how much I can laugh after I see the cured layup and see what repairs may be needed. I'll have pictures tomorrow.

But hey, I'm building a plane and loving it.
__________________
Drew
---
SN 1200
Celebrating four years of NOT building.

You are buildin a dam airplane from scratch and you do not know what you are doin!!!! - Dust

-Inspired by Burt, designed by Nat, built by me. (Hopefully)

www.Cozy1200.com - just pics and misc ramblings
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  #9  
Old 11-07-2007, 11:02 AM
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Default Re: Making Plane Parts

i hate cling wrap - 4 mil is far better

flox corners - mmm - thought we put them in after cure or is my memory wrong?
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Enjoy the build,njut av byggandet, godere il costruire, nyd bygningen, geniesse den Bau, apolafse tin kataskevi, disfrute la construcción, curta a construção, Pidä hauskaa rakentamisen parissa, bouw lekker,uživaj grade?inaslajdaites postroikoi, geniet die bou
dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
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  #10  
Old 11-08-2007, 12:19 AM
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Default Re: Making Plane Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewChaplin View Post
Holy Cow, where do I start.

First I pull the peel-ply off F-22 & F-28. Both turned out real nice. I'm pleased. I am going buy some butcher paper for covering layups before weighting them down. I've been using industrial rolls of cling wrap (the stuff they wrap pallets with) to protect my plywood. The problem is no matter how careful you are, it always wrinkles a little. Especially were it touches other plastic. These wrinkles show up in the final part. Nothing that needs repair, but the part isn't as smooth as it could be.

Second, I HATE FLOX CORNERS! It took me between 30 minutes and an hour to put flox in the corners of the seatback. putting flox in the corners? The best.
i think i use it more wet then you do , mine is smoth and fast
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  #11  
Old 11-08-2007, 08:53 AM
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DrewChaplin DrewChaplin is offline
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Default Re: Making Plane Parts

I pulled the peel-ply on back of the seatback.

The peel-ply makes the surface look nice. There was only a couple shiny spots.

After closer examination, I'm a little concerned. The self-made fiasco with the cling wrap has come back to haunt me. I think I'm looking at an overall dry layup. It looks like a lot of small airbubbles down under the weave. There are several larger airbubbles less than 1" that I'm confident that I can inject epoxy into. The pictures don't do justice.

[image1] If you look closely, you can see my pencil marks. These are the worst of the dry spots. A couple are quite large.

[image2] A spot next to the flox corners. I'm not sure if this is air, but it may be excess micro.

[image3] More dry area?

[image4] Air bubble. I should be able to inject epoxy here.

[image5] And to top it all off, I have a terrible corner that'll need a structural repair.

So suggestions? Oh ya, I've given up on the cling wrap.

I cut all the glass needed for f-22 & f-28. I'll do that layup tomorrow. I'm pretty sure I know what to avoid now.

The good news? I just bought 1,000 tongue depressors for $20. I think Spodman gonna want some!
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__________________
Drew
---
SN 1200
Celebrating four years of NOT building.

You are buildin a dam airplane from scratch and you do not know what you are doin!!!! - Dust

-Inspired by Burt, designed by Nat, built by me. (Hopefully)

www.Cozy1200.com - just pics and misc ramblings
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  #12  
Old 11-08-2007, 11:38 AM
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Default Re: Making Plane Parts

i have a palm sander with 36 grit. if the part is bad, sanding it with the palm sander will immediately remove the offending material and a patch is then easily replied.

Good material will not be affected
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Enjoy the build,njut av byggandet, godere il costruire, nyd bygningen, geniesse den Bau, apolafse tin kataskevi, disfrute la construcción, curta a construção, Pidä hauskaa rakentamisen parissa, bouw lekker,uživaj grade?inaslajdaites postroikoi, geniet die bou
dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
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  #13  
Old 11-08-2007, 09:03 PM
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DrewChaplin DrewChaplin is offline
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Default Re: Making Plane Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust View Post
i have a palm sander with 36 grit. if the part is bad, sanding it with the palm sander will immediately remove the offending material and a patch is then easily replied.

Good material will not be affected
I have the same sander, but no sandpaper!! I have some cheap crap of the local home improvement store. I'm awaiting my priority mail package with a bunch of Norton sandpaper from Supergrit .
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Drew
---
SN 1200
Celebrating four years of NOT building.

You are buildin a dam airplane from scratch and you do not know what you are doin!!!! - Dust

-Inspired by Burt, designed by Nat, built by me. (Hopefully)

www.Cozy1200.com - just pics and misc ramblings
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  #14  
Old 11-08-2007, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: Making Plane Parts

from the photos it all looks good,from were i sit.
if you Can SHOOT THEM OVER A MAGNIFYING GLASS WE CAN SEE FOR SURE
i some times shoot though a lens from a old prog,.
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Old 11-17-2007, 10:28 AM
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DrewChaplin DrewChaplin is offline
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Default Re: Making Plane Parts

I've been thinking about the backside of the IP. The more I look at it, the more unhappy I'm with it. Tonight I filled several of air pockets with a syringe. I'm beginning to wonder about doing a structural repair on the back.

Here's an idea and I'm asking for some feedback.
About one inch in from each of the sides, sand down threw the one bid ply. Would it now possible to pull the unattached ply off the foam? Basically de-laminate it. Now perform a typical structural repair. I'm just thinking that trying to sand off a large quantity of glass will cause significant foam damage.



Want some good new?
I now have ONE completed part for my airplane. I will work tirelessly for several the next several years get back to where I'm today. That is to have one and only one complete part.

Now if I remember correctly, someone promised/bribed me that showing that un-named person a completed part would earn be another ride in their LEZ!

The IP should be done tomorrow after I do the second layup on the stiffners.
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Drew
---
SN 1200
Celebrating four years of NOT building.

You are buildin a dam airplane from scratch and you do not know what you are doin!!!! - Dust

-Inspired by Burt, designed by Nat, built by me. (Hopefully)

www.Cozy1200.com - just pics and misc ramblings
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