Dirty little engine " secret "

[rv6ejguy]

On the RV forums, the alternative engine vs. cert engine question has it's own section under "the Never Ending Debates" subsection! People are gonna use what they want in the end and it's usually pretty hard to conviince people to switch sides on this one. Getting it flying safely is the ultimate goal. I just have to say that if everyone always installs a Lyconental, we'll always be stuck with just those choices. Alternatives are nice for some of us and this is the only way that the state of the art progresses- by testing, refinement and documentation for others to follow without making the same mistakes.

[Dust]

I am not against experimentation, i am just against trashin others choices or possible choices.

Certificated ANYTHING is silly expensive, for example - blue mountain vrs garmin 1000. i think they have about the same functionality but the blue will run you 18,000 with auto pilot and the garmin 60,000 without autopilot.

my point is simple - if you want a simple, fast, reliable engine - go with the lycoming, they are not bad as is constantly being made out.

if you want to experiment with a rotary, a sub or a diesel or even like i am doing with a continental - go right ahead, just understand that both ways are open to you and both ways are just fine.

[jbasol]

Hi all,

I should probably start with a brief introduction. My name is John Basol, and I'm a Cozy IV builder in Minnesota. I'm a semi-active member of the cozy mailing list so some may recognize me already. I haven't been too vocal on this board yet, but I have spent a fair amount of time in recent weeks pouring over discussions pertaining to engine selection.

As some may already know, I am currently at Ch9, installing my landing gear. And while it may seem I have lots of time left to worry about engine selection, some will also know I've been building for only 4 months. My intent is to be mounting an engine in a year or so. No promises that I'll make that, but I do spend a LOT of time in the shop. I'm simply addicted.

My engine selection has troubled me. I really don't see a clear cut answer to what I want. I've looked at everything from Rotary, to Sube, Lyc, to Superior, Innodyn to Allison. Nothing fits my every desire. I will need to compromise.

The idea of not testing an experimental engine (at least not initially) on my expermimental airplane, has some merrit with me. I'm an instrument rated pilot with only a couple hundred hours in the ol' book. I do NOT consider myself an exceptional pilot, but I do consider myself a safe one. This is due, mostly, to knowing my limitations, even if I don't like them.

In this case it means I have to accept that to start I should stick with a known engine install. This has me leaning towards a Superior XP-360. There are a couple of things that I would like to not compromise so much on though. The first is price. There is an option to buy the engine as a kit, and assemble it yourself. I am an accomplished engine builder (though not by trade, pure hobby), and would actually feel MUCH more comfortable assembling the engine myself anyway. Another facet to the cost issue is rebuild. When you hear numbers of $12-15K for rebuilding a Lyc, is this assuming all work is performed by a certified rebuilder? Is this just a parts cost, or can one reduce that cost by using non-cert cylinders, and performing much of the work themselves?

The kit brings up a second issue I do not wish compromise on, roller lifters. The XP-Plus roller valve train is not available as a kit option. I'm hoping to address this issue with Superior directly.

A third area I would like to not compromise is engine control. I would prefer to use a FADEC system. The PowerLink system offered through Mattituck would be great, and I'm looking into obtaining this system seperately. Anyone know of others I should look at? Superior has a very brief mention of a FADEC system coming soon, but no real details.

A last, and less important, issue is turbo normalization. Anyone able to clue me in to differences between the IO-360 and TIO-360 Lycs (aside from compression ratio, and perhaps cam profile)? I would like to normalize with a turbo, though perhaps not right away. Most of that decision will need to be made with info I glean from the prop manufacture once I decide on that.

Hopefully I didn't ramble to bad. I'm hoping to have a good idea of what engine I'm going to use soon. I need to plan things like how to heat this cabin in the artic weather we have up here. To plan that correctly I need to determine if I'm using Water, Oil, Muffler, Duralogs, or whatever.

John Basol
Big Lake, MN
Cozy IV - N204TF - Ch9 - Adding weight

[Dust]

well because the turbo is fitted below the sump level the turbo continental has an oil scavenge pump built in, don't know about the lycoming.

I think the turbo and controls from the aviation industry would cost mega bucks new.

[JonC]

Dust is correct.

There are scavenge pumps, lower C/R, the obvious exhaust differences, different oil setups (especially if using auto-wastegate). I believe there are some valve differences, but I'd have to check.

However, in a normalizing setup, very little of this really matters, as you are not "boosting" by much... 32" is normally the max you ever see in turbo-normalizing trim, so you will likely not run into detonation issues to warrent the lower compression jugs since when you are running 32" you will be running full rich anyways since it will be during take-off and climb.

Now if you are going to want to run boosted operations... then you need a lower C/R, you might want a different cam profile to take better advantage of the boost, an intercooler, etc.

Good luck with your choice.... turbos can be a bit more of a handful than a atmo engine as I'm sure you know since you have a few hundred hours. They have their plusses, but they can also take away some of the fun factor of just going and flying.

[Dust]

Also - to take advantage of the power at the thinner air altitudes, it is best to have a cs prop

Lycoming turbo's are rare - continental turbo's are not

[jbasol]

Well, I got word back from Superior already. They have no method to modify the SL-360 engine kit, save for CS or FP, and Carbed or Inj. This leaves me leaning towards the prebuilt XP-360, (or Mattituck TMX360) or find a high time used engine and rebuild it to suit my desires.

[Kraig]

Hopefully I didn't ramble to bad. I'm hoping to have a good idea of what engine I'm going to use soon. I need to plan things like how to heat this cabin in the artic weather we have up here. To plan that correctly I need to determine if I'm using Water, Oil, Muffler, Duralogs, or whatever.

Duralogs???!!!!!

Oh, that one got me laughing. I grew up in South Dakota, so I know that you are only partly joking.

Funny that I am thinking along the exact same lines as you about the Superior choice w/ Fadek, roller lifters, etc. I will be following your decision and others comments closley. Keep us in touch with your progress. Not many of us can get it together as fast as you are, so don't be a stranger here.

Kraig

[jbasol]

I wish I was joking about the Duralogs... It may actually come to that if I can't figure out what hang the prop on.

One question I'm very curious about is the 12-15k rebuild cost I so commonly hear of with Lycomings. Is that typically what it costs to do an exchange? or to have someone rebuild it for you? OR is that just actual parts costs?

[Dust]

Well, i personally figure about 1200 to 1500 per cylinder - others here have way more experience than me in this. What takes SOOOOOOOOOOOO much money is what is replaced in a quality rebuild. pistons, jugs, bolts and on and on and on. what you have when done is pretty close to NEW engine.

It's not like in a car where you just put new rings on, bore out cylinder or just hone if that will work. this stuff is put in NEW.

I have the list of parts put in my conti at the last rebuild and it is LOOOOONG