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Old 03-05-2005, 02:27 PM
MSires's Avatar
MSires MSires is offline
Cozy MkIV #1348
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Jacksonville, IL
Posts: 302
Default Ok, so the FAR is online and I don't have to buy it.

As usual, when dealing with gov't regulations, this is as clear as mud.

Reading 61.5, the multiengine RATING is required to operate aircraft with more than one engine.

Reading 61.31, additional TRAINING is required for operating complex, high performance, pressurized, or tailwheel aircraft.

61.31(k)(2)(iii)(B) gives exception for the RATING requirements when the aircraft is operated under an experimental certificate, UNLESS a passenger is being carried.

So, if I'm reading this correctly (Chris Barber can chime in anytime), Wayne is correct that an experimental multiengine aircraft can be flown by a non-multi engine rated pilot, provided he/she is the only person in the aircraft. However, no exception is given for the training requirements for complex, high performance, pressurized, tail wheel, etc., because these are not ratings.
It also doesn't give an exception for the pilot CERTIFICATE or the medical CERTIFICATE requirement, so you still have to be a certificated pilot, and have a current medical.
I am still fuzzy on the turbine or >12500 pound issue, but since that is a type RATING, I'm thinking the RATING exception covers it also. I can't afford to put gas in a turbine, and I don't think I want to sand 12500 pounds of fiberglass so I'll let Greg worry about that one!

Does this make sense? Since when did the gov't ever have to make sense?

Old 03-05-2005, 02:40 PM
Waiter's Avatar
Waiter Waiter is offline
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northwestern Ohio
Posts: 1,096

The Over 12,000 lb crowd used to get by with what was called a LOA (Letter of Authorization. EXAMPLE: LOA for L39C Jet. (I hold one) The LOA came with its own set of Operating Limitations, that were at the whim of the local FSDO. HOWEVER, Thats all history, You are now required to have a Type Certificate. THis solves a lot of problems because now everyone falls under the same rules, and they are just a little clearer then mud. The requirements for the Type certificate are a lot more stringent then the requirements in the LOA system.

(Heres one for yah, A turbine powered aircraft is NOT required to carry an ELT.)

Old 03-05-2005, 04:06 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tehachapi, CA 93561
Posts: 1,083

Originally Posted by Cozy Girrrl
Marc, this being the case, what about Complex (full retracts) and HP >200HP?
Here's the data I could find in about 4 hours of searching the FAR's, AIM, and CP's.

First, with respect to Chrissi's questions:

From FAR 61.31: A Complex ENDORSEMENT is required for any AIRPLANE that has retractable gear, flaps, and a constant speed prop.

Note the "AND"'s between the equipment. Since NO rutan derivative canard aircraft (V.E. / L.E. / COZY / E-Racer / Berkut / Velocity / etc.) have flaps, a pilot would not need a complex endorsement to fly any of them.

Also from FAR 61.31: a "high-performance" endorsement is required for any airplane with AN ENGINE of MORE than 200 HP (emphasis mine).

In this case, only aircraft with at least ONE ENGINE that is rated at MORE than 200 HP would require a "high-performance" endorsement. This is one reason that many engines are rated at exactly 200 HP. A Defiant with two O-320's or O-360's of 200 HP or less each would NOT require a "HP" endorsement, while a Berkut with a 240 HP engine would require one.

Note that neither of these endorsements speaks to the Category or Class of the AIRPLANE - just to the fact that it's an AIRPLANE.

MSires has addresses part of the "multi-engine" issue, but I'll continue with a bit more info.

First of all, from CP 38, this snippet:

"....According to the FAA, a pilot will require a private pilots license to fly his or her own Defiant. A multi engine rating is not mandatory, although common sense would call for at least a center line thrust rating, which could be obtained in ones own Defiant."

Remember, this was written in 1984. I have an FAR from 1999, and here's what 61.31 (k) 2 (iii) says with respect to exceptions from the requirements:

"....The holder of a pilot certificate when operating an aircraft under the authority of an experimental or provisional aircraft type certificate."

As MSires points out, the FAR NOW reads:

"...[(iii) The holder of a pilot certificate when operating an aircraft under the authority of--
(A) A provisional type certificate; or
(B) An experimental certificate, unless the operation involves carrying a passenger;]"

The web page indicates that this change in the section went into effect on 9/1/2004 - VERY recently. So, unless someone has been studying the FAR's, they might not know this - certainly __I__ didn't know that this was a recent change.

So, the upshot is, as MSires points out, one can fly a Defiant (or any other Ex-Am Built twin engine aircraft) solo without a Multi rating, but NOT with a passenger, as of 9/1/2004.
Old 03-05-2005, 05:43 PM
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mplafleur mplafleur is offline
Finally at Chapter 4!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Lathrup Village, MI (Metro Detroit)
Posts: 1,203

Thank-you Marc.

I hope that answered everyone's questions.

Now, GET BACK TO BUILDING! (or flying)
Michael LaFleur
Turbo Rotary Big EZ Retract
And no trees were harmed or killed in the creating and sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced...
Old 03-05-2005, 11:25 PM
shrike's Avatar
shrike shrike is offline
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Rockwall, Tx
Posts: 149

got it.....

The answer is sometimes yes, and sometimes no.
Old 03-06-2005, 11:08 AM
CBarber's Avatar
CBarber CBarber is offline
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 802

Originally Posted by shrike
got it.....

The answer is sometimes yes, and sometimes no.
Welcome to "legalese by committee" (ie government regulations).........a "Definite Maybe"

Even though this tread has degraded in ways, it was interesting and informative....all the passion has got me pumped with extra I am about to turn into airplane building. Building Powers Activate!

Off to the hangar.

All the best,

Chris Barber
Houston, Texas
Old 03-06-2005, 12:04 PM
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Dust Dust is offline
Super Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 7,963

Some days it is just painful to get the real info out, especially in dealing with government regulations. THERE IS NO LOGIC to government regs, just words to be carefully read and ....... misunderstood.

I split the conversation out of the defiant thread because - I new it would interest many and it was info that was needed or at least fun to have. I got a complaint about the splitting, so I get complaints, but not many.

The result is, in my opinion, we have ALL learned something from this series of points, especially since the rules were changed in 2004.
Enjoy the build,njut av byggandet, godere il costruire, nyd bygningen, geniesse den Bau, apolafse tin kataskevi, disfrute la construcción, curta a construção, Pidä hauskaa rakentamisen parissa, bouw lekker,uživaj grade?inaslajdaites postroikoi, geniet die bou

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world

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