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  #46  
Old 02-21-2007, 08:17 AM
red2000gt red2000gt is offline
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Default Turbo Update

Any further updates on your turbo setup? How is it working out? Any more problems? Looks like you have had it going since april of '06. Just trying to see how it worked out as I am starting my Cozy Mark IV and have the twin turbo rotary to start with. I will be modifying and going to a single turbo similar to your setup.

Thanks for all the helpfull info you have already provided to everyone.
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  #47  
Old 02-21-2007, 08:47 AM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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The turbo is behaving well. I've had zero issues with it since installation about 40 hours ago. EGT can climb quickly if I don't watch it. I'm still trying to establish from the rotary guys what's normal and acceptible, and I may be able to bring it down with small timing and mixture adjustments. Tracy Crook says "1750 is stone cold" on climb-out, but he hasn't said what he considers to be "too hot". For now I tend to back off the throttle when I see 1750, but that gives me an exhilerating ROC, especially in the CT winter temps. Hopefully I'll get a bit more flying in come spring, and a chance to experiment with some fine tuning of the ECU.

If you're rebuilding the engine, note that I have 3mm Turrentine seals. I think this may help with detonation.
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  #48  
Old 02-21-2007, 09:20 AM
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CBarber CBarber is offline
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Red2000gt,

Hey, you are in Kingwood? I am down in the Clear Lake area (Sagemont actually) and a cop in Bellaire and my Velocity with a 13b turbo is at Ellington Field. If you have any desire to check out what I am doing, let me know. Also, I am president of EAA Chapter 12. We meet at Ellington the first Sat of the month (www.eaa12.org) we could arrange a hangar visit then should you desire.

Wouldn't mind your insight into the rotary as well. FWIW.

John, thanks for the turbo update. Your insight and experience is priceless. I am getting down to the "nuts & bolts", so to speak, of my rotary install, any additional info will be greatly appreciated. Since I hope to copy it, is this T04 working out or would you modify something again if you had the opportunity?????

Even though I am commited to this layout, what thoughts, if any, do you have on PL big push for P-Porting....I will have to have something to mess with once this one is flying.....well, after I RE-restore my 65 Mustang ragtop.

All the best,

Chris
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Last edited by CBarber : 02-21-2007 at 10:11 AM.
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  #49  
Old 02-21-2007, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade View Post
EGT can climb quickly if I don't watch it. I'm still trying to establish from the rotary guys what's normal and acceptible, and I may be able to bring it down with small timing and mixture adjustments. Tracy Crook says "1750 is stone cold" on climb-out, but he hasn't said what he considers to be "too hot".
Important note, unless you have changed the position of your sensor, it is post turbo, not pre turbo. The true EGT is, from what others more wise than I have said, probably 150F to 200F hotter, or did you change your sensor local
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maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
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  #50  
Old 02-21-2007, 04:25 PM
red2000gt red2000gt is offline
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Thanks for the invite. I would love to check out what you are working on. It sounds like you are installing your turbo 13b in a velocity. Is that correct? That was one of my other options for a plane, but I think I have located a great deal on a Cozy MKIV. Too good to pass up.

I would love a hanger meeting to check out your progress. I am very jealous. Sounds like you are progressing quite well. I am sure you are getting excited to see it start up and fly.

I will see you at 9:30 on 3/3/07 which I guess is the next meeting. Which works out perfect for me. I will probably bring along a friend or two.

Thanks for the info. I look forward to meeting you and the rest of the chapter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CBarber View Post
Red2000gt,

Hey, you are in Kingwood? I am down in the Clear Lake area (Sagemont actually) and a cop in Bellaire and my Velocity with a 13b turbo is at Ellington Field. If you have any desire to check out what I am doing, let me know. Also, I am president of EAA Chapter 12. We meet at Ellington the first Sat of the month (www.eaa12.org) we could arrange a hangar visit then should you desire.

Wouldn't mind your insight into the rotary as well. FWIW.

John, thanks for the turbo update. Your insight and experience is priceless. I am getting down to the "nuts & bolts", so to speak, of my rotary install, any additional info will be greatly appreciated. Since I hope to copy it, is this T04 working out or would you modify something again if you had the opportunity?????

Even though I am commited to this layout, what thoughts, if any, do you have on PL big push for P-Porting....I will have to have something to mess with once this one is flying.....well, after I RE-restore my 65 Mustang ragtop.

All the best,

Chris
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  #51  
Old 02-21-2007, 11:16 PM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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Quote:
is this T04 working out or would you modify something again if you had the opportunity?????
So far it's doing fine, but I've been gentle with it and only have about 40 hours on it, so its really too early to tell. When the [ambient] temperature goes up a bit in the spring I hope to get some hours in and experiment with timing and mixture. As Dust says, I'm measuring EGT post turbo. I'm not sure what the temperature difference between the manifold and where I'm measuring is. I've heard guesses, but no actual data. Once the hanger warms up a bit I'm also planning to add an independant EGT sensor, wiring and display to double check the reading.
Quote:
what thoughts, if any, do you have on PL big push for P-Porting
Well my first reaction is that if it comes from PL it's probably bogus. I have absolutely zero faith in his ability (or willingness) to apply real science to any problem. He has a history of making up his mind, then bending the science to prove himself right. This combined with his 10+ years of talking with absolutely no "doing" leaves his credibility very low in my book. If you want a knowledgable answer that's likely to make sense - ask Tracy.

All that said, I know that a P-ported rotary can make quite a bit more power than stock. How much, I can't say but I wouldnt expect it to match a turbo, even at sea level. I've also heard that they'll run a little rough at low rpms, but are just fine at 6000 where we need the power. Is there a potential for engine stall at low rpms on final? I dont know, and as far as I know, there isnt a PP flying. Buly is building (or planning to build) one, so we may find out soon enough. One thing I think we can be sure of - a PP won't help you get full power at altitude or in the Colorado mountains as a turbo will.

I expect a PP engine will be more robust than a turbo - less possibility of detonation, will be much simpler, lighter and wont have a red hot turbo under the cowl. On the negative side, you'll now need an exhaust system and a [very substancial] muffler.
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  #52  
Old 02-22-2007, 02:17 AM
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David Staten David Staten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust View Post
Important note, unless you have changed the position of your sensor, it is post turbo, not pre turbo. The true EGT is, from what others more wise than I have said, probably 150F to 200F hotter, or did you change your sensor local

If you are running a turbo you should have a TIT (turbine inlet temperature) sensor just before the turbo. This is the limiting temperature in your exhaust gas train, and is a mixed gas temp from both rotors (or in a lycosaurus from 4-8 pisstons). When you lean/richen a turbo'd craft, you are using the TIT as the temp you base your actions/decisions off of. Even if 1750 is stone cold for a rotary, if its too hot for the turbo you have, its too hot. Know the limitations of your equipment.

On a turbo rotary, you should have 3 egt probes. 1 on each rotor, in the same position/distance from the port. and then 1 TIT right before the turbo. You adjust/tune/balance the mixture using the two "real" egt readings, then you operate the engine on a regular basis using the TIT reading.

It makes no sense whatsoever to measure the exhaust temp down stream of the turbo. (just a note for any newbies reading along)
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  #53  
Old 02-22-2007, 07:29 AM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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Quote:
It makes no sense whatsoever to measure the exhaust temp down stream of the turbo.
Well, it's better than not measuring EGT anywhere. .... but I've come to learn that what Dave says is the right way to do it. A forth after the turbo would be useful too. No flying turbo rotary has done that yet as far as I know. Some day I'll drill and tap the manifold and add additional sensors.
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  #54  
Old 02-23-2007, 01:44 AM
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David Staten David Staten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade View Post
....I've come to learn that what Dave says is the right way to do it.
Wow... thanks for the vote of confidence..

but for all you other readers out there... remember one thing.. John has actually flown a rotary powered aircraft. As of yet.. I have not. I'm just your everyday average know-it-all
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  #55  
Old 03-10-2007, 09:07 AM
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1286 1286 is offline
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Default New Turbo

Folks,

I've recently bought a Garrett turbo kit, but the turbo has the wrong trims. Real good deal finally made me bite the bullet. Does anyone know where I can get the trim changed reasonably?

Bob (real close to an engine start)
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  #56  
Old 03-10-2007, 07:36 PM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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Bob,
These are the guys that built my turbo. http://www.agpturbo.com/
They are the distributors for Turbonetics. They might be able to help. Trim is a function of the turbine and housing design. It might be possible to change the housing to adjust the trim.
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  #57  
Old 03-10-2007, 10:10 PM
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John, Wow! they have a lot of differnet turbos to choose from. Couldn't quit figure out wich one you have. without searching through the tread how much HP gain are you getting?

thanks
Cozy 20b RG
chapter 4 and going
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  #58  
Old 03-10-2007, 11:37 PM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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Mine is a Turbonetics T04E-50 big shaft tangential with P trim, wet housing, an aspect ratio of 0.96 and a TiAL Sport 46mm wastegate. The stainless manifold came from XSPower.

I don't know what the HP gain is, but the difference in take-off roll and climb rate is impressive. I'd guess that it adds around 50HP at the rpm range (5000 - 5500) and boost (42 MAP or 5 PSI) I'm using.
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  #59  
Old 03-12-2007, 10:07 AM
Nathan Gifford Nathan Gifford is offline
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How many hours do you have on it now John.
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Cozy Mk IV Plans Set 1330
Better Still --> Chapter 9
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  #60  
Old 03-12-2007, 04:27 PM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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84. There hasn't been much good flying weather on Saturdays for the past 3 months. Spring commeth.....
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