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  #46  
Old 05-24-2004, 08:53 AM
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At the point in my life when I was working both the turbo'd C206 jump plane and flight-instructing at another place in a C150, I noticed how unsatisfying the C150 was because it was so simple. The C150 has so few engine related controls and guages. The C206 had more things to play with and more instruments to monitor. I really enjoyed having all these extra things in the C206. When I see articles about single-control motors I tell myself, 'good for them but boring to work and not for me'. I echo no4.

Dust, unless you can come up with others who post to support your plans I'm afraid you will not be allowed to do those things. Put that catalog down and take your hands away from it.

Last edited by tnt : 05-24-2004 at 09:36 AM.
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  #47  
Old 05-24-2004, 11:20 AM
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No4 said

"Without being rude, it seems you choose a "black box" to replace simple good airmanship."

Well, what you consider good airmanship, i consider extra pilot workload. I am not into flying, i am into going. As far as your comment on which would be a hanger queen, you are right, that is why i started this conversation, to stop those problems before they happen.

Just for the heck of it, i just reviewed my Engine operators handbook and if i did not know how to spell warning before, i sure as heck do now. heh heh heh

I am aiming for single lever, if i can do it with 2 instead of 4 or 5, cool, but i am aiming at one.

I also did another thing that is not good airmanship, a black box from will put my nose gear down below 90 knots, if i forget.

i have a automatic trans in all of my vehicles, cruise control, abs brakes, all to take workload off of myself when driving on the ground. My philosophy is just going up in the air with me
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  #48  
Old 05-24-2004, 08:53 PM
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Default Ease of use and just getting there

Dust,

How come some people don't get ease of use? We Mac users know how to get there with a minimal of effort! The plane should be able to take us where we want to go and not be a problem. But Macs use the KISS principle, and you may be trying to get to complex (2 turbos).

Bob
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  #49  
Old 05-24-2004, 09:11 PM
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Cool E Fish n' see

No matter how you spell it (even with Dust's spail chequer) it can add up to many different conclusions:
1. Efficiency based on horsepower (given weight moved a given distance)
2. Efficiency of reconstituted power conversion (direct drive from shaft, exhaust gas pressure differential)
3. Efficiency based on miles per gallon (aircraft and MP Seat G)
4. Efficiency based on weight lb/hp

No 4 (the Good Dr Evil) made my point well when he correctly pointed out the efficiency of the 4 and a quarter Cat engine versus the Honda 4 banger.
However, even though the Cat can move more weight more efficiently than the Honda, it has to overcome a weight differential to become more efficient.

A Honda can take a 180 lb man 300 miles and use a mere 10 gallons of fuel.
A Tractor with the Cat engine mentioned above, can take a man the same distance and use 50 gallons of fuel.
From that perspective it isn't as efficient.

In aircraft there can be an "overkill" in hp and/or torque, but since engine weight (with it's periphery) is also included in the measurement, efficiency can't be determined from just one aspect of the way the engine runs or consumes fuel.

Sorry to get off topic or back and forth...I was gone a couple of days.
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  #50  
Old 05-25-2004, 01:06 PM
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Default :off: mac users

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1286
We Mac users know
Mac users? Whiataminute, don't you guys have your OWN interenet to go to? You know, over there with the web phones, email toaster-ovens, and other appliances?

Dust I do like the idea of a throttle/wastegate combined, but I think there are situations when you might want to kick open the wastegate independently. I can't think of any but I'm sure there are...
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  #51  
Old 05-25-2004, 01:39 PM
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Real simple, i can keep 30 MP at all times, why wouldn't i? I'm slow, just put up with me
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  #52  
Old 05-25-2004, 03:34 PM
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What's an aeroplane without a myriad of knobs and levers and dials and switches and buttons and levers and dials to completely befuse and confuddle the non-flyers into believing that anyone has to be brilliant and amidexterous to do anything remotely simple as fly?

Yes, I expect to have as simple a panel and controls as possible that will do everything I could possibly want. I will only have a single lever for go-fast (throttle), BUT I will have a mixture knob (RWS ECU) and if I go C/S prop, there will be a control for that. The electric props (once someone proves it on a pusher) typically have a full-coarse and full-fine setting plus a momentary switch to select intermediate settings. Non-turbo, that still gives 3 controls for manipulation, but adds some simplicity and lets the boxes do most of the work, but still gives the operator full override control for the abnormal situation.

The best compromise is to automate as much as possible, but still ahve the override capability for WHEN you want it, instead of just having the automation and no way to change from the pre-programmed setting.

Mind you, I avoid Mac's as much as possible, even if they do have cool Spiel Chuckers!
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  #53  
Old 05-26-2004, 02:14 AM
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Hi Clutch Cargo,
I get your point mate. But just to upset Largeprime, I'll bring up the old phrase " apples and oranges". A VW 2.5 turbo diesel would way only slightly more than the Honda motor, and probably save you 10 litres an hour. But how did we get on to that anyway, it's like chinese whispers.

Hi Dust,
As someone else said you can't go "oversquare" with these motors, at least not the IO-360. 27" = 2700 rpm, 25"= 2500 rpm, 24" = 2400 rpm. et cetera, et cetera. In fact I don't think you can run it between 2000 rpm and 2300 rpm at all because it resonates, and well basicaly sh#ts itself.

I still think the single lever is a mistake, much better to have two, at least.
Dr Hans reasoning for two levers=
If you had an engine failure at 25,000 feet, you could feather the prop, and as the glide ratio of a Cozy is about 14:1 with a fixed pitch, you might get 15:1, which is 375,000 feet or about 60 nautical miles.
If you had an oxygen failure at 25,000 feet ( where useful consciousness is 5 minutes), you could kill the power, set full fine (max rpm), deploy the speed brake, and enter a steep gliding turn. I think you'd be down at 18,000 (where useful consciousness is 30+ minutes) in maybe 3 minutes.


I'm going to sound contradictory here, because your nose gear auto extend is a very good idea. As I have mentioned before the Piper Arrow has a seperate pitot head, with a switch that deploys the gear below 80 kts, and also a horn that sounds if the the throttle is closed with gear up, and if flaps 20' are selected likewise.
I also think the electronic ignition and injection is a good idea, certainly an improvement on the original.
EFIS I think is very pretty, but unnecessary. Plenty of 747 - 200's still roar around the globe with steam gauges.


You are a worshipper of the three pointed silver star right? I think Merc's are the best motors out their, unfortunately, not only have they been designed by Dr Hans cousins, tested to infinity, and manufactured by some of the world's finest craftsmen/robots, but if they go wrong you can pull over, stop, and call the tow truck. Your Cozy will be going half as fast again as a Formula 1 car, and sometimes it's not so easy to pull over and pop the hood.

All your optional extras sound good, and if you think you can pull it off then good luck. Personaly I'd try to keep it as basic as possible, because I wouldn't trust my ability to install, set up, and maintain so much important stuff.

Best Regards
Adam
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  #54  
Old 05-26-2004, 04:20 AM
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Hey there all...
While the idea of having a fully automatic plane, that you push the button to start, put the go lever forward and reverse procedure when you get where you are going is a great idea, I'm also in great favor of having a manual override, in case one of the black boxes departs from logical function.
EFIS is way cool and it is on the wish list for one of my longer term design ideas, but I also would like the comfort of having a nice familiar set of steam guages to look at if for some reason my cockpit electrics went bush.
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  #55  
Old 05-26-2004, 09:27 AM
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Strange;
A key idea that dust has is two black boxes. If one fails the other takes over.

No4
Congrats Buddy. Fly safe.
I dont know anything about "oversquare", how about undersquare?
The square conversation is occuring because dust is playing with the idea of a automajical boost controller that ALWAYS holds ~30" infront of the throttle plate. The manifold will show whatever the throttle plate allows it to show.

everyone;
What dust is trying to do is understand all the nessary nobs. And then understand how they relate to each other, And then if some nobs can be eliminated or simplifyed. Idealy he would like some sort of throttle to drive the system.
The nobs needed are
Throttle
Mixture
Boost
PROP

If we have an automajical system that holds 30" boost always infront of the throttle plate, then we eliminate a nob.1 down, two to go.

The prop has two settings, cruise and climb. On an engine fail it looses oil pressure and goes limp. Anything else is strictly not needed, right?
Can the prop get a feed from the throttle? Over some % open and it goes into climb (2800)?
Perhaps this is not even needed. Might not the engine overpower the prop and force it over 2400? I dont know if the prop can have enough pitch to keep the engine at 2400. Any ideas?

The last two are tough. Throttle and mixture. Perhaps they could be fed from a power lever, that delivered the % power you set it at. A marked area on the power lever would desiginate cruise, for conserving fuel, full forward for full power. The throttle and mixture key off that?

So perhaps one lever can be done. And it might not be too hard. And it might be a lot safer.
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  #56  
Old 05-26-2004, 09:51 AM
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I'm going slow, so this "oversquare thing" bugs me. I start the engine at ground level and take off. I'm oversquare 29 and 2800. I go to 3000 feet and reduce to 2300, i'm oversquare. 29 and 2300

Am i confusing Manifold preasure with throttle position. Just because the MP is at 28, that doesn't mean i have to have the throttle wide open.
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dust

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  #57  
Old 05-26-2004, 11:55 AM
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Default Back to mp school...

It sounds like someone needs to go back to manifold pressure guage school.
First of all manifold pressure is actually vacuum pressure..
If you take off at 6000 asl, your MP guage will read about 23 something. (normally aspirated engine)
For a complete explanation read this.

I hope this helps...
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  #58  
Old 05-26-2004, 12:24 PM
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Lightbulb turbo school..

Here is another article explaining turbo action from the same guy. Good read for the Dust - meister....eh?
Here is one explaining turbo-normalization...
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  #59  
Old 05-26-2004, 01:13 PM
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Ok, I am seperating throttle preasure with manifold preasure. I will probably sensor right after the turbo, before the intercooler and another one in the intake manifold. The thottle will determine what the cylenders actually see. So its like this, do you reduce manifold preasure at sea level. I seperate out in my planning, MP and throttle possition. It will give me better control. Having a preasure gage right after boost gives you faster response time.

I will controll the amount of air available with a throttle plate and i will also control the fuel mixture, so i can run 30mp 10 gals per hour 2400 rpm all day long.
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dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
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  #60  
Old 05-26-2004, 01:45 PM
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Well that tells us something.
In the Plenum vs Plenum disscussion john and dust had, the real name was upperdeck, apparently.
Is there an upperdeck before and after the intercooler?
In general these articals are not very usefull for dust, although it explains why there is some confusion.
I belive the "square" rule is because of carbs. With fuel injection it goes out the window. Is this true?
Many points made in the artical I imagine are true for "blessed" aircraft, but just dont apply for dust, and others.
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