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  #1  
Old 02-17-2006, 08:22 PM
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Default Mission Accomplished!

A few months ago Bob Tiley kindly sent me his stock T03 turbo for "destructive testing". I can now report mission accomplished.

During the runup today I had smoke coming out of the back. A fair amount of oil was found on the exhaust shield and prop. One turbine blade appears to have "left the building".

I babied this one, never going over 40 MAP during takeoff or 34MAP @ 5000'

I have all the parts in hand for the new T04 installation.
Guess what I'll be doing next week.
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  #2  
Old 02-17-2006, 08:59 PM
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have you considered sending it to the Philippines for rebuilding? they swear by there work
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  #3  
Old 02-17-2006, 09:06 PM
deuskid deuskid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
A few months ago Bob Tiley kindly sent me his stock T03 turbo for "destructive testing". I can now report mission accomplished.

During the runup today I had smoke coming out of the back. A fair amount of oil was found on the exhaust shield and prop....

I have all the parts in hand for the new T04 installation.
Guess what I'll be doing next week.
your taxes?... ... sorry couldn't resist...

John
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Old 02-18-2006, 04:52 PM
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FINALLY!!! I was worried that you were starting to believe a stock turbo could be used if it was "babied".
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Old 02-18-2006, 05:54 PM
ShaleDC ShaleDC is offline
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Aren't you concerned that turbine pieces may have entered your engine and damaged it?
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  #6  
Old 02-18-2006, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Aren't you concerned that turbine pieces may have entered your engine and damaged it?
That did happen to me on one occasion, but I think that's a pretty rare event. I checked the seals this afternoon after getting the old turbo and manifold off. No damage.
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  #7  
Old 02-18-2006, 09:06 PM
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John
I guess it all boils down to you not only do you need the right tool for the right job, but you need the right part for the right job. The T04 is the right part for the job. Good luck and keep everyone informed. One step at a time.

Jack
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  #8  
Old 02-19-2006, 04:56 AM
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Another turbo of John bites the Dust (sorry John and Mike, I couldn't resist).
Seriously now, I consider it a great pity that the standard turbo can't stand the heat. At the risk of repeating myself, has anyone tried moving the turbo farther from the engine? In the automobile environment, the turbo is placed as close to the engine as possible in order to minimize turbo lag; this is not significant in an aviation application.
I posit that, for mere turbo-normalizing and given appropriate placement as far from the exhaust ports as possible, the standard turbo should endure.
You are the experts and have researched and discussed the subject in the rotary forums thoroughly; so, has anyone tried my proposition?
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  #9  
Old 02-19-2006, 05:24 AM
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I don't think anyone has tried you're suggestion, Kumaros.

There are a lot of things going on, all of which are bad for the stock turbo.

1. Overspeed. Normalize or "baby it" and you cut this down considerably.

2. Heat. The stock turbo was designed for the rotary, but not for the rotary at mid to full power continuously. Moving the turbo away might help here, but not much, and the additional radiant heat in the cowl would be hard to cool.

3. Overall design. I've heard (now) that the T03 Mitsubishi they use for stock is not famous for it's reliability, even in cars. The bearings are just not up to it. You might help it with an external wastegate, but eventually it'll bite you.


Given that the T04 with all the supporting hardware and top of the line TAiL wastegate can be had for $1500, it's just not worth experimenting any more.

Buly has a stock turbo, and I think Steve Brooks and Todd Bartrim are still running theirs. It's a real pain to change, but they'll do it eventually either before, or after, they're turbo dies. I think Dave Lenord has a Turbonetics hybrid T03 which might be another answer, but his testing is stalled while he fixes his "lost coolant" engine.
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Old 02-19-2006, 01:14 PM
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I've rebuilt a few Hitachi and Mitsu turbos from various Mazdas over the years and how shall I put this. They are crap. Lots of premature bearing and oil seal failures.

John's latest photo would appear to point to yet another rear bearing failure, turbine blade rub against the housing and tossed/ damaged turbine blades. The blades also show no combustion deposits which is unusual and may indicate overtemping. I don't know what alloy they Mitsu turbines are made from but they may be similar to early OE Garrett's GMR alloy which are scary above 1550-1600F.

With John keeping MAP below 40 inches and below 10,000 feet, N1 should be within limits of this turbo easily so overspeed was likely not an issue on this failure. This is a real concern above 15,000 and using higher MAP with many OE turbos however.

Moving the turbo away would drop TITs slightly but if the unit is that marginal, it would still be a matter of when not if.

The only solution is "the big shaft " TO4 as John likes to often point out.
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  #11  
Old 02-19-2006, 02:36 PM
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Please entlighten me guys and gals. I am ignorant on turbos in their specific application. When we first decided to "go turbo" the stock unit was hoped by John and others to be usable. However, now we seem to know better.

I still really would like to have the advantages of the turbo, but I am not sure how to best determine which one. When I E-Bayed T04 I got a number of returns with bids in the $200.00 ish range. This seems to be low based on the previous statement the entire package being had at around $1500.00. (months and months ago my search for new seemed to show them starting in the $3 - 4 k range. Granted, this was a cursery search just to give me an idea. Funny how $1500.00 seems much more doable/afordable than 3 or 4 k).

What should I be looking for and what all will I need to put together a "package"? Such as particular designations for manifold, turbo units, even brands to stay away from. I noticed references to T3/T4. What is that telling me? Is that what they mean by hybrid? Is that "bad"?

I have tried to do some online research, but as is often the case, it is hard to wittle down the pertinant information from sales pitch and/or fluff when you are pretty much starting from scratch. I seem to remember John's new unit being listed somewhere, but don't remember the specifics.

If you can point me in the right direction (or, if you have the time and desire provide some specifics) it will be appriciated. There just seems to be too much information to grasp some of the actual useful information for our purposes. Thanks.

All the best,

Chris
keeping the forum creed of no stupid newbie type questions being a problem (even though I am not a newbie to building, but am to turbos)
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  #12  
Old 02-19-2006, 03:14 PM
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Dear Chris,
"T04" is an almost generic term in that it will give you a wide array of turbos of the same flange size with breathing ability in a certain range. As to the details specific to the installation on your engine, the likelihood of finding a "make do" version of a T04 on ebay is extremely thin. Even John and I don't agree 100% on the specific details of the same model turbo from the same vendor. If I remember correctly John opted for larger diameter sleeve bearings over our choice of ceramic ball bearings and a lower A/R value. So the debate between him and us is that we think he may still be skirting overspeeding his turbo at high altitudes. Our own thought about controlling turbos has gone from belief we had to have full manual control over the wastegate back to our original idea of the two stage boost controller; CLIMB or CRUISE with preset values. Some people want to fly a B-52 with a panel that looks like a late 1960's Sansui stereo... a bazillion knobs and flippies, thats great if all four people in your plane have specific jobs to do for a successful flight. So a two stage boost controller will do it for me until flying gets so boring that I need to add more knobs and flippies
... Chrissi
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  #13  
Old 02-19-2006, 06:05 PM
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The Garrett TO4 refers to the basic frame size of the unit. Within this frame you can specify about 20-25 different compressors, 5 different sizes of turbine wheels, two different shaft/bearing sizes and many different types and A/R ratios of turbine housings.

Many T3 parts from the next smaller frame size can be interchanged with TO4 parts to give hundreds of combinations to suit hundreds of different applications. It is my view that none of the T3 parts are suitable for use on a Wankel for aviation purposes. The T3s have the capability of using a very reliable integral wastegate assembly which the TO4s don't have so you are stuck with external wastegates with them.

The A/R ratio of the turbine housing will have no effect on the possibility of overspeeding at altitude with a wastegate installed but as previously discussed allows the possibility of a wider range of MAP/ rpm settings at altitude than a larger A/R ratio permits. The A/R ratio determines the exhaust velocity at the turbine wheel at a given exhaust mass flow. The larger the number, the lower the velocity. Mission altitude, cruise rpm and power determines the choice of A/R.

I've run the numbers on John's application for hp and altitude and felt the combo of E50 compressor and P .96 turbine trim with the big shaft sleeve bearings was the most prudent. The ball bearing turbos don't have the proven track record at this time in continuous high rpm applications in my view although they may prove entirely suitable. Chrissi will prove or disprove this area. The first generation of ball bearing Garretts were dismal failures. The second generation seem much better but are relatively new and used primarily in street auto and drag race applications where duration at high turbine speeds are short.

Analysis shows that John's combo will never reach more than 83% N1 limit at 18,000 feet pulling 40 inches MAP at ISA +20C. This is a very safe rotational speed for continuous operation for this turbo.

The E50 compressor has wide compressor islands and uses a larger diameter blade design than other E series compressors. This gives a wider surge margin at high altitude and cruise power than other suggested choices. Surge is much more of a concern than overspeed at altitude.

The turbo itself should be under $1500. Add wastegate, manifold and your favorite controller and you may be close to $2500.

Hope this answers some of your questions. John will be flying soon so we'll soon know. The proof is in the pudding.

Last edited by rv6ejguy : 02-19-2006 at 09:33 PM.
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  #14  
Old 02-19-2006, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy
...The proof is in the pudding.
And John is the master at turning turbos into pudding... The Pudding Master
We wish John all the success with his new turbo.
...Chrissi
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  #15  
Old 02-19-2006, 09:29 PM
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Chris,
I'll add a few thoughts to the above.
The T04 is lighter than the stock turbo, even with the required 3.5lb external wastegate the total is 1.5lb less. Mounted on an XS-Power wastegate it fits under the typical curvature from a Cozy firewall (should be even easier for similar for a Velo). Size and weight are therefore not a problem, so there's no reason to go with the T03 size in a new application. Part of my "struggle" to remain with the T03 was to avoid all the retrofitting I'm now doing. It turns out that it's not as bad as I expected. For a new install there's no value to going with a T03.

Some of the T04's you see on Ebay might be genuine articles, but they're typically high volume ones that wont fit your needs for aviation. I've heard that some of the ebay turbos are chinese knock offs made with inferior materials. These will probably also be unsuitable.

The genuine article comes from agpturbo.com who are the distributor for Turbonetics. My turbo cost about $750 plus a few extras. I got a deal on the TiAL wastegate at $350. The manifold was $100 off ebay (they list them all the time). Total cost, including fittings, 321 stainless exhaust and boost controller was right around $1750.

Wait a few weeks and I'll let you know how the T04 performs.
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