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  #1  
Old 01-27-2005, 06:26 PM
luismx luismx is offline
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Default Twin Turbine, is it possible?

Hello, this is my first posting to the board, i am just getting ready to Start my Project, after more that 6 months analyzing all options available i have selected the cozy design (actually i have not make my mind about buying Cozy Mark IV or Aerocanard, I like Cozy network of builders but really would like to increase rear seat width to 39.5).

I have read tons of info about the engine options (from traditional Lycoming to home built turbines). I was ready to commit with a Lycoming, but cost and the fact that I do not feel comfortable investing 20K+ on an engine that was designed before I was born (currently 35, and hoping to be still on my 30s before finishing) kept me researching, a few days ago I ran into several options for jet propulsion, I found of particular interest the G8-2-130R, http://www.vortechonline.com\jets\index.html , i am not actually rushing to install this propane engine (actually you need two to meet the power requirements), but I would like to know if someone else is considering (or consider previously) a similar solution.

I live in Mexico and have a huge opportunity for savings on labor (highly qualified) on engine overhaul/design/construction, so i am looking to save as much as I can (safety is always first) on my engine.

Thank you all.
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  #2  
Old 01-27-2005, 07:42 PM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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Interesting. 130lbs of thrust from a 23lb unit costing < $3k. Double it, add fuel and you're still under any regular engine by a couple of hundred pounds. You'd have to convert the back aft of the firewall to huge propane tank

I wonder if a couple of these would work for a backup power supply and assisted take-off. IIRC 1lb of thrust is about equal to 1 HP, so one of these would keep you airborne - right???
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  #3  
Old 01-27-2005, 08:02 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luismx
.... I found of particular interest the G8-2-130R, http://www.vortechonline.com\jets\index.html.....
First of all, even two of these would be exceptionally marginal for takeoff performance - 260 lb doesn't cut it - 350 to 400 lb is pretty much the minimum static thrust needed for a COZY MKIV. Also, you'll need some large fuel tanks, as the fuel burn will be twice that of an internal combustion engine (or you just won't stay up long). Greg Richter replaced his rear seat with a fuel tank when he installed the jet engine.

With only 46 lb (well, with aux. stuff, call it 100 lb), you'll never get the CG in the right place without extending the engine mount 3 ft or more aft of the firewall - you might end up with some ground clearance problems on rotation.

My understanding is that Gluhareff engines are extremely noisy, as well.

While there are a few folks putting jets in COZYs/Velocities, unless you're doing it just to say that you did it, or because it's good advertising for your business, there really is no good reason.
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Old 01-27-2005, 08:18 PM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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OK, the 1:1 ratio doesnt hold, but wouldn't 135 lbs thrust extend your glide ratio a lot, or even allow you to stay airborne with a main engine failure? Just wonderin.
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Old 01-27-2005, 08:21 PM
Nathan Gifford Nathan Gifford is offline
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Besides noisy, check out that one go cart with the two engines glowing. Pure radiant heat.

These engines don't have turbines. They resonate which makes the very, very loud. I am not sure how well they will perform at altitude.

What would be slick is to attach them to an old Varieze airframe. It would be quite popular on the air show circuit. However, I wouldn't want to crash with all that propane on board!
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  #6  
Old 01-27-2005, 11:30 PM
Blackhawk D Blackhawk D is offline
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As the father-in -law from "Everybody Loves Raymond" used to say:

"HOLY CRAP"!! Check out the MEG-2XH Backpack Helicopter. If ever I chose to do myself in, that will be the vehicle of choice. Won't have to even try, fire it up, pull pitch (or whatever one does with the thing) and good-bye cruel world.

Blades look like there're right off the old UH-1.
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  #7  
Old 01-28-2005, 08:43 AM
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tnt tnt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawk D
"HOLY CRAP"!! Check out the MEG-2XH Backpack Helicopter. .
I've seen these motors mentioned for years, except for the pic on that page of the Icarus hangglider(2 gals fuel=5 min flight), I've never actually seen anything IN FLIGHT with the motor.
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Old 01-28-2005, 10:51 AM
Blackhawk D Blackhawk D is offline
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Many years ago while at Ft. Rucker, I saw a film where a helicopter was testflown that used rotor tip propulsion. Idea was to eliminate the torque reaction. What I recall is that the noise level was incredibly high and the engines discharged a vapor of some kind and as a result, shortly after the machine was started, it became engulfed in an IMC fog. No idea what fuel it used. An example was in our museum, but it was never further developed.

I am assuming the propane would be stored as a liquid, under pressure? I get nervous lighting my grill, don't think I have the guts to strap a load of propane to an aircraft and light it off.
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  #9  
Old 01-28-2005, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawk D
Many years ago while at Ft. Rucker, I saw a film where a helicopter was testflown that used rotor tip propulsion.
Come to think of it, I've seen pics of that too. I think they routed jet-exhaust thru the rotors to the tips. It always seemed like a good idea but there must've been some problem.
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  #10  
Old 01-28-2005, 04:38 PM
luismx luismx is offline
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Default maybe this is not the option

Thank you all for the response to my question, i work at a petrochemical company and have some experience with propane, in my opinion this single issue would make it to risky for me (or for anyone) to go ahead with this engine, i have seen what this gas is capable of doing and certainly do not want to have it on the back my plane.

Since i do not have to buy/install my engine for a while i am going to try to get feedback on what a "great" engine would be, i will get some last semester engineering studens to work with me on the idea and see if i can get something done this year (in Mexico by law, any student has to work for free for 6 months before he can get his major/technician degree)

I will post the thread on this issues onthe engine forum
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  #11  
Old 01-28-2005, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luismx
Since i do not have to buy/install my engine for a while i am going to try to get feedback on what a "great" engine would be,
Thats the right additude to have - it will all become clear (sometimes as mud) over just a few short weeks of looking and asking questions
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