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  #76  
Old 06-03-2005, 05:15 PM
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Kumaros Kumaros is offline
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Default Longwinded answer

My friends,
Tempting as a Defiant/Cozy may be in theory, I concede that at this stage in my life I want to get flying quickly, and this precludes too much experimentation. I had thought that simply elongating and strengthening the nose and putting both radiators and batteries aft, maybe also lengthening the aft engine mount for weight and balance reasons, would take care of most major problems. This may still be the case, but it's too much of a project for a newbie to handle. Add to this the multi-engine training and ratings needed for this kind of aircraft as per recent FAA directives and the idea gets blown out of the water.
The next year is dedicated to building the plane and the next two years to flight training, getting the plane certified after flying off the required hours and generally gaining experience, later who knows. I may revisit the subject in three years time, when hopefully I'll be ready to venture abroad.
It's funny though, how this thread began with Defiant/Cozy hybrids and drifted to my pet subject, diesel vs. avgas engines.
Since I don't want to flood the thread with multiple posts addressing one or two points each, please allow me to answer all points in this post:
To Rutanfan:
Ray, if you need concrete numbers, Ben has got them for you, according to those the Thielert Centurion turbodiesel is about 32% more efficient than a Lycoming. Then there is the article with the Mercedes Benz world record attempts for endurance and fuel economy I pointed you to. If you don't trust world record attempts, supervised by international automotive associations, who do you trust? What it boils down to is that diesel cars are in general about 30% more fuel efficient than gas ones. Years long experience in Europe where you can have the same model car with diesel and gas engines has proven that. You are asking me to provide an example of a flying well proven turbodiesel that is more efficient than the Teledyne Continental IOL-200; I could cite the Thielert Centurion. There must be a reason aero-clubs and flight schools all over Europe are switching to it, even though the initial cost is comparable if not higher than a Lycoming. Then again I'm not talking about ONE WATER-COOLED Continental engine, which had probably the hell tweaked out of it to run as efficiently as possible for a world record, I'm talking about tens if not hundreds of millions of cars in everyday traffic all over Europe. Of course I'm not saying that diesel will save the world from energy starvation, that would be ridiculous. What I'm saying is that in light of dwindling oil supplies, it's prudent to husband the resources we have, until something better becomes available, such as solar or wind energy produced hydrogen, or super-efficient batteries to store solar or wind produced electricity, or even the pebble bed reactor projects that are studied in China and South Africa, producing electricity and hydrogen. I wouldn't welcome a future of bio-diesel or ethanol, meaning huge areas of monocultures.
I wish the specs of this forum would let me post the table of comparisons between the Honda Accord models with gas/hybrid, diesel and gas engines respectively, it’s a real eye-opener. You can find it at this URL, if you scroll down to the December 07, 2004 article: Comparing Accords: Diesel, Hybrid and Gasoline:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/diesel/
To CBarber:
Chris, you are partly right in that gas prices in Europe are artificially inflated by taxes, they do reflect, however, the greenhouse gases emissions problem, the dwindling crude oil supplies problem, etc. I don’t like it, I have to live with it, I have to admit this system forces the people to make much more rational decisions. I myself ride a bicycle to work, a little motorcycle to market, the Renault Twingo for family outings.
To Ben:
Ben, I don’t know what Thielert mean with their "best economy" numbers, and yes they have a FADEC, which a backyard conversion will have too, right out of the donor car. As for a CS prop, the Thielert are using one, because their engine is relatively underpowered at 140 HP relative to a 180HP Lycoming it's supposed to replace. With equally powered diesel and avgas engines, the diesel one would actually do better with a fixed prop, due to its flatter torque curve from very low RPM's. I'll take the popcorn factory advice with a corn of salt.
To Waiter:
Of course 80% of the price of gas is tax, just as in Greece, it's the philosophy of the system.
To MarbleTurtle:
MT, that used to be true, VW TDI engines, with their cast iron cylinder blocks, are a good example of what you are saying. Modern engines, however, with aluminum cylinder blocks are much lighter. The new piezoelectric injectors with multiple orifices and multiple injections per burn do the rest, so that modern common-rail turbodiesels are on a par with the best gas engines, if not better. As for your wish for a 220HP diesel, look at the new Mercedes Benz V6, any weight and balance concerns you may have I'm sure can be resolved by judicious shuffling around of ancillaries.
Finally to all:
There seems to be a misconception that diesels need CS props, MT at that at US$10k a pop, that's just not true, if anything quite the opposite applies. With their huge torque reserves from very low RPM's, diesels are able to turn big steeply pitched props without any help from CS mechanisms.
And on this note I bid you all good night from Greece
Kumaros
It's all Greek to me
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  #77  
Old 06-03-2005, 05:33 PM
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Waiter Waiter is offline
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Kumaros,

Find yourself a nice midtime O320 or O360, Install it to plans. Now keep you eyes open for an engine that you want to try, then build it up on a mock-up of you firewall to get all the details worked out. Once your sure your ready, then take the plane out of service for a couple months to do the swap.

You'll be flying years sooner. Why sacrifice your Air Time while your sorting out the gazillion details of a non-standard engine installation.

Whens the pickup date?

Waiter
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  #78  
Old 06-05-2005, 01:20 AM
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Kumaros Kumaros is offline
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Default Final plan crystallizing

The plan for the next two to three years is beginning to crystallize:
Next Saturday June 11, ferry from Patras to Bari. June 12 drive all the way up the Italian boot. June 13 across France. June 14, pick up the project and go see Paris nightlife. June 15 say au revoir to Paris and then onwards southbound. June 16 drive over the new Foster viaduct in Millau to Montpellier and visit the "Nid des Canards":
http://aeroclub-montpellier.com/canard.htm
June 17 Cote d'Azure, Nice, Cannes, Monaco, then Italy, hopefully somewhere around Rome. June 18 Bari and ferry to Greece.
Then, spend the summer finishing the house, while doing minor work on the plane and arranging for necessary supplies, engine, etc.
Spend fall and winter building the strakes, microing and sanding and then sanding some more, then priming and painting the airframe. At the same time, finding a suitable engine, something like this:
http://ersatzteile.autoscout24.de/Sh...616&referrer=0
This Mercedes Benz A class 170 CDI engine is the heart of the Thielert Centurion. Even without tuning it to the max, as Thielert have done, achieving 140HP, by chipping and judicious over-boosting one could easily get about 120HP from this engine. Another advantage of this particular engine is that I have a working relationship with the local MB agency, thereby gaining access to their workshop manuals and procedures, ECU codes and who knows what else will be needed.
Anyway, 120HP should be enough for a Cozy III, even with a fixed prop, certainly with an in-flight adjustable IVO Magnum. Especially considering that the first two years of the plane's life will be within Greece, with maximum distances about 300 to 400 nm, minimum fuel, flying off long runways.
Next spring will be engine trial time. I'm going to strap it onto my little catamaran, in a cowling, with the proposed cooling and the proposed prop and "fly" the hell out of it, safely on water. Any cooling problems would be exacerbated by the relatively low speeds. If the engine stays cool through this ordeal, it will certainly stay cool in the air.
In April of next year, I'm coming to Florida to get my PPL, visit SunNFun and hopefully have a little stick time in a Cozy.
Then back to Greece to install the engine and fly off the required hours, slowly gaining experience and confidence.
All this is ideal of course and may be postponed for a year, if there are any teething problems with the airframe and/or engine.
Next winter will be engine and airframe tweaking time, perfecting the plane for the next flying season. Later who knows? Maybe I'll revisit my Toyota D-4D engine plans, maybe not.
Anyway, if this plane really flies, it will be a sensation in Greece, lowering plane acquisition costs by a factor of ten or more, and fuel costs by a factor of seven, compared to equivalent performance spam cans.
Kumaros
It's all Greek to me

Last edited by Kumaros : 06-05-2005 at 07:34 AM.
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  #79  
Old 06-05-2005, 09:14 AM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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Sounds like a good plan, and an excellent adventure. I wish I could tag along.

Regarding the engine - where did you read that 120hp is enough for a Cozy III? Sounds a lot low to me. The recommended engine is the 0-320 which is 160HP. Many install the 0-360 for 180.
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  #80  
Old 06-05-2005, 11:31 AM
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Kumaros Kumaros is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
snipped ...
Regarding the engine - where did you read that 120hp is enough for a Cozy III? Sounds a lot low to me. The recommended engine is the 0-320 which is 160HP. Many install the 0-360 for 180.
Normally you would be right, but not if you consider these facts:
The Thielert Centurion, with its 140HP, is competing head to head with the IO-360 due to its higher torque from low RPM's. A three blade IVO Magnum in-flight adjustable prop will do the rest.
This is an interim solution until the Toyota D-4D becomes widely available.
For the next couple of years, the plane will be operated within Greece, off long runways, with minimum fuel due to the short distances involved, and with one or two people aboard. Later we'll see.
Kumaros
It's all Greek to me
P.S. In today's news: The 13 km (8 miles) long highway tunnel between Italy and France, I will use in a week, was blocked by the collision of two trucks carrying tires and synthetic glue respectively, resulting in at least one death due to fumes and temperatures around 900 degrees Celsius (1650 Farenheit)
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  #81  
Old 06-05-2005, 06:24 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
Sounds like a good plan, and an excellent adventure. I wish I could tag along.

Regarding the engine - where did you read that 120hp is enough for a Cozy III? Sounds a lot low to me. The recommended engine is the 0-320 which is 160HP. Many install the 0-360 for 180.
While you are correct that most folks with COZY III's have O-320's, and some even have O-360's, the original engine for the COZY III was an O-235, and there are numerous COZY III's flying with these engines, which put out 115 HP. You no longer have a rocket ship, but you certainly have a safe, useful, and VERY efficient aircraft.

A 120 HP turbo-diesel with a CS prop in a COZY III will be more than adequate, since you'll always get at least 120 HP, whereas the O-235 will rarely get 115 HP, unless it's cold and low.
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  #82  
Old 06-05-2005, 06:53 PM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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Quote:
there are numerous COZY III's flying with these engines, which put out 115 HP.
Interesting. I didn't know that.

So what's the minimum HP to get a Cozy IV off the ground in a reasonable distance?
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  #83  
Old 06-05-2005, 07:54 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
...So what's the minimum HP to get a Cozy IV off the ground in a reasonable distance?
Depends on your definition of reasonable, and your gross weight.

Since there are a few COZY MKIV's flying with 150 HP O-320's, and those people seem reasonably happy with them, we know it's no more than 150 HP (and those folks are usually operating on warmer than standard days, so they're not getting that much). It's also going to depend upon whether you have a CS or fixed pitch prop.

Assuming a gross weight of 2050 lb. and a takeoff roll of 2.5K ft. at SL standard conditions, the answer is probably in the 140-150 HP range with a fixed prop, and 120 - 130 HP with a CS prop. But I pulled those #'s from a dark place......
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  #84  
Old 06-06-2005, 09:28 AM
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Kumaros Kumaros is offline
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Default One plane, three engines, hard numbers

Source: FLIEGER magazine, June 2005:
Manufacturer: Lambert Aircraft Engineering / Belgium
Aircraft: Mission M212, four-place, Diamond Catana look-alike.
Engines: Thielert Centurion 135HP, Lycoming O-320 150HP, O-360 180HP
Cruise speed at 8000 feet and 75% power: between 126 and 137 knots
Take off roll: between 270 and 225 meters (720 - 885 ft.)
That's all folks. That's the difference between a 135HP turbodiesel and a 180HP avgas engine.
I think I'm going to be very happy with my Mercedes Benz A Class / Thielert Centurion 1.7 liter / ~120HP engine.
Kumaros
It's all Greek to me
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  #85  
Old 06-06-2005, 12:26 PM
argoldman argoldman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kumaros
Source: FLIEGER magazine, June 2005:
Manufacturer: Lambert Aircraft Engineering / Belgium
Aircraft: Mission M212, four-place, Diamond Catana look-alike.
Engines: Thielert Centurion 135HP, Lycoming O-320 150HP, O-360 180HP
Cruise speed at 8000 feet and 75% power: between 126 and 137 knots
Take off roll: between 270 and 225 meters (720 - 885 ft.)
That's all folks. That's the difference between a 135HP turbodiesel and a 180HP avgas engine.
I think I'm going to be very happy with my Mercedes Benz A Class / Thielert Centurion 1.7 liter / ~120HP engine.
Kumaros
It's all Greek to me
Kumaros,

The above is greek to me too!

How did they get all of those engines on the same plane. Certainly, if each engine were on a different plane, they would have generated three individual sets of data for compairison. It is important to make sure that you are compairing apples to apples in that the propellors must be matched to the engine and airframe, the engines with roughly the same time on them and similar maintainence history, weights of the planes (with pilots), CG of the craft, climatic conditions (temp Baro pressureand how the measurements wind conditions (for takeoff) were taken.

Unless these factors are standardized, the data is meaningless.. perhaps thats why they didn't publish (if they didn't) the individual data, or the experimental parameters that should have been part of the test.

This is not to cast any dispursions on the potential of the Diesels that you are looking at, they may indeed perfectly matched. It is only to stimulate your quest for accurate compairisons.

efaristo (sp??)
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  #86  
Old 06-06-2005, 12:43 PM
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Kumi....get to plane building and buy a high time Lyco. Lots of nights in between for data calculations. When you're ready I'll come out and help with the diesel. It's like college. By the time you're half way through, you've changed your major three times.

Forget Paris nightlife (piss n perfume) and get across the border. Do an overnight in Rome and pig out on pasta, wine, and gilotto for half the price. Feel great for the ferry home the next day.
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  #87  
Old 06-06-2005, 01:33 PM
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Kumaros Kumaros is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by argoldman
snipped ...
How did they get all of those engines on the same plane.
snipped ...
Rich, I'm just quoting a German aviation magazine, which is probably quoting the manufacturer's data. The main feature of the June issue was listing the planes that were presented at the AERO fair in Friedrichshafen. This little plane is offered as a kit, and the manufacturer has tested the aforementioned engines as suitable for the kit. Same as Diamond offering their twin with Centurions and Lycomings. If you remember that thread, Diamond were forced to increase the fuel capacity of the Lycoming powered plane due to the increased thirst of the engines.
As for installing an "aviation" engine in my Cozy III, I'd do it only if forced by the Greek Civil Aviation Authority, but then would be able to fly some tens of hours a year instead of the hundreds I'm planning on.
Kumaros
It's all Greek to me
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  #88  
Old 06-06-2005, 01:43 PM
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Kumaros Kumaros is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neverquit
Kumi....get to plane building and buy a high time Lyco. Lots of nights in between for data calculations. When you're ready I'll come out and help with the diesel. It's like college. By the time you're half way through, you've changed your major three times.
Neverquit, I'm sure I'll change my engine choice not only three but probably thirteen times by the time I'll find something suitable. It all depends on what becomes available on the market. Just not a Lycoming, not even as a joke. Just look what less than two thousand Euro buys:
http://www.mobile.de/SIDQm.-9ElUdqbZ...1111163290685&
wrecked car less than one year old, with a 2.0 liter 113HP turbodiesel and all kinds of nifty gadgets , like power steering, power windows, alloy wheels, practically new tires etc. to find some use for in th Cozy or sell to lower the total cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neverquit
Forget Paris nightlife (piss n perfume) and get across the border. Do an overnight in Rome and pig out on pasta, wine, and gilotto for half the price. Feel great for the ferry home the next day.
I wish I could forego Paris nightlife too, but I'm taking a friendly couple along, who have never been to Paris, so a short visit is obligatory. The highlight of the tour, for me at least, will be the visit to the Montpellier Aero-Club with their world famous "Nid des Canards" (The Canards Nest) with five to ten canard planes to drool over. Roma tip duly noted. Just imagine, in the future, with the Cozy III completed, Italy will be just around the corner for me, a two hours flight away. Talk about the proverbial hundred dollar pizza in Pizza
Kumaros
It's all Greek to me

Last edited by Kumaros : 06-06-2005 at 02:04 PM.
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  #89  
Old 06-06-2005, 03:47 PM
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Default Cozy/Defiant twin engine turbo diesel

Dust, we need a new thread to this. How about Junk Yard Dogs. It can include Kumaros with his smashed turbo diesels (did you notice KIA on the grill??) Cozy/Defiant dream plane. Steve and his retrofit steering column cheapo u-joints. I'm all about those Mercedes head rests. Any other wild ideas we can rummage the yards for?
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