Canard Community Forum  

Go Back   Canard Community Forum > Finishes and Finishing
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-28-2006, 02:39 PM
Dust's Avatar
Dust Dust is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 7,963
Default Poly-Fiber Superfil

i forget now - why is this stuff bad?
__________________
Enjoy the build,njut av byggandet, godere il costruire, nyd bygningen, geniesse den Bau, apolafse tin kataskevi, disfrute la construcción, curta a construção, Pidä hauskaa rakentamisen parissa, bouw lekker,uživaj grade?inaslajdaites postroikoi, geniet die bou
dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-28-2006, 04:38 PM
John Slade's Avatar
John Slade John Slade is offline
Flying TurboRotaryCozyIV
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: KWST
Posts: 3,836
Default

its twice as heavy as micro
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-28-2006, 05:55 PM
Wayne Hicks Wayne Hicks is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Carrollton, VA
Posts: 1,376
Default

Just do a search on Marc Z's site, key words Superfill, PolyFiber, whatever.
__________________
=============
Wayne Hicks, Cozy Plans #678
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages...cks/index.html
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-28-2006, 06:25 PM
CBarber's Avatar
CBarber CBarber is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 802
Default

Notwithstanding its drawback, I have and likely will use it due to it being VERY easy to mix in small quantites....such as to fill holes drilled in the wrong place or drilled to secure parts together with cleco's etc.

Yeah, regular micro is not all that difficult to mix, but is still more involved than taking the lid off of two containers and mixing. For very small jobs I tend to overmake micro. Now that I am on finishing tasks I find it useful.

However, I will go back and read Marc's insight.

All the best,

Chris
__________________
Chris Barber
www.LoneStarVelocity.com
Houston, Texas
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-28-2006, 07:17 PM
Buly Buly is offline
Buly
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: FLORIDA, USA
Posts: 213
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBarber View Post
Notwithstanding its drawback, I have and likely will use it due to it being VERY easy to mix in small quantites....such as to fill holes drilled in the wrong place or drilled to secure parts together with cleco's etc.

Chris
And people think all the lawyers are smart? DON'T DO IT
Use only epoxy based products on your plane, and two part paint.
If it is good for the environment, it is not good for your plane.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-28-2006, 08:15 PM
ZG4Me ZG4Me is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Colorado
Posts: 185
Default

Polyester ("Bondo", 'regular' fiberglass resin) has a different shrink rate than epoxy. Am sure it looks good on paper, and would for a few days/weeks/years, but it'll eventually delam.

Small fills, on the other hand... But it ain't worth it for me.

Like Buly sez.

For Dust, it's like putting varnish over lacquer.

Rick
__________________
Rick Hall; MK-IV plans #1477; cozy.concours.org
Build status: 3 4 5 6 7
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-28-2006, 08:34 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tehachapi, CA 93561
Posts: 1,083
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buly View Post
And people think all the lawyers are smart? DON'T DO IT
Use only epoxy based products on your plane, and two part paint.
Superfil IS epoxy. It's just premixed with the filler in one part, so it's easier to use. It's heavier and more expensive, too, but it IS epoxy.

Interestingly enough, there's a great deal of controversy over whether current, high quality polyester based fillers (Featherfill NOT included) are acceptable for use over composite layups. The answer is neither obvious nor clear. Certainly, the safe route is to use epoxy based products, but that doesn't mean that you're doomed to fail if you don't.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-28-2006, 08:36 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tehachapi, CA 93561
Posts: 1,083
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Hicks View Post
Just do a search on Marc Z's site, key words Superfill, PolyFiber, whatever.
I think what you're referring to is the cozybuilders archives, at:

http://www.maddyhome.com/cozysrch/

NOT my web site.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-29-2006, 02:23 AM
CBarber's Avatar
CBarber CBarber is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 802
Default

Thanks Marc for the link. I just searched the site for superfill and found a lot of inconsistant statements and opinion. Some love it, others seem to feel it is "unpure". I did not find a consensis as to it being heavier. Some feel it is cheaper to use than other systems (West included, I think) since it doesn't shrink (another point of contention was what systems "shrienk" and which ones didn't). Superfill not shrinking was thought to be a reason for it to not have to be filled over as much due to an aplication changing once cured. Also, it supposedly sands very well.

So, to me no red flags, just business as usual....some love, some hate, some don't know......some are adimant as to any of the above. To me, just one more option/tool in my chest. It was demonstrated and praised at the EAA composite workshop I attended in Dallas a few years back....said it was lighter and easier to use......but, methinks, corporate sponsorships MAY have had some influance......maybe not, the instructor may just like it.

It is really easy to mix though for small jobs....IMHO

So, Dust, I don't think it is bad, just different....and a different cost equation.

All the best,

Chris
__________________
Chris Barber
www.LoneStarVelocity.com
Houston, Texas
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-29-2006, 07:21 AM
John Slade's Avatar
John Slade John Slade is offline
Flying TurboRotaryCozyIV
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: KWST
Posts: 3,836
Default

Quote:
did not find a consensis as to it being heavier
Chris, Somewhere in my web site you'll find documentation of a weight/volume experiment. I made similare sized lumps of superfil and micro and measured the weights and water displacement of each. The results were conclusive, at least for me. Weight / cubic inch of the superfil was almost double. Of course it doesnt matter much if you're just filling a few minor holes (Why are you drilling holes in the wrong place anyway? )

Note - The micro was mixed very thick with warm MGS. You probably won't get it as light using Ezpox.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-29-2006, 08:59 AM
Lynn Erickson Lynn Erickson is offline
EVOLUTION EZE
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chino, CA
Posts: 535
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade View Post
Chris, Somewhere in my web site you'll find documentation of a weight/volume experiment. I made similare sized lumps of superfil and micro and measured the weights and water displacement of each. The results were conclusive, at least for me. Weight / cubic inch of the superfil was almost double. Of course it doesnt matter much if you're just filling a few minor holes (Why are you drilling holes in the wrong place anyway? )

Note - The micro was mixed very thick with warm MGS. You probably won't get it as light using Ezpox.
superfil uses the west system resin. how do I know ? I was at the factory and saw them mixing it and the drum said west system all over it. it is made with west and micro and some talc. mixed with a high speed turbo mixer which allows a higher micro the resin ratio then you can get by hand mixing which should make it lighter but it is mixed to be use by every new builder and the ratio that they mix to is not as light as you can do if you warm the resin or mix on a hot day. it is designed to fit the need of the average situation and temp. by the kit builder who only fills a few seams. to me it is a pain to mix the right ratio of hardener to resin and the blue color is to tell if it is completly mixed. the blue color makes contouring difficult as the color is distracting to the eye and it is hsrd to see the shape when you are dealing with to many colors on the surface. one advantage is that the density is always the same and that makes sanding more consistant and less hard and soft spots in the filler makes the surface easier to sand true. when hand mixing, hard and soft filler can be avoided by always mixing the filler with the same micro to resin ratio no matter what the tempature and if it is cold, use a heater while mixing and spreading.
__________________
This is my opinion of these facts and only my opinion, your opinion may vary

Lynn Erickson A&P for lets say almost 30 years
Much better with a Dremel than a computer.
What if they gave me choice between a fast computer or a fast plane?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-29-2006, 12:39 PM
SteveWrightNZ SteveWrightNZ is offline
builder wannabe
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Bay of Plenty, New Zealand
Posts: 771
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Erickson View Post
... mixed with a high speed turbo mixer which allows a higher micro the resin ratio then you can get by hand mixing
I have heard this before and I find it surprising, as I once spilled the bubbles in the mixed-epoxy and ended up with much arm-wrestling with what turned out to be a stiff rubbery harder-than-dough type substance. It was way too thick but after some rolling long pieces of it between my warm palms it was barely useable. Heh, it kinda weighed in around, oooo, NOTHING !!

So why do they need a high-shear mixer to do this ?

S
__________________
A dolphin breaths through an asshole on the top of its head. (Billy age 8)
http://canardaviationwiki.dmt.net/wi...:SteveWrightNZ
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-29-2006, 04:05 PM
Dust's Avatar
Dust Dust is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 7,963
Default

MMMM - well, unless i can learn how to get absolute full coverage in one fell swoop - it may be the way to go.

As it stands on the strake tops, i am gonna oversand what i have and skim coat the entire surface and resand trying not to sand through that coat at any point
__________________
Enjoy the build,njut av byggandet, godere il costruire, nyd bygningen, geniesse den Bau, apolafse tin kataskevi, disfrute la construcción, curta a construção, Pidä hauskaa rakentamisen parissa, bouw lekker,uživaj grade?inaslajdaites postroikoi, geniet die bou
dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-29-2006, 08:39 PM
CBarber's Avatar
CBarber CBarber is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 802
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade View Post
(Why are you drilling holes in the wrong place anyway? )
Yeah, I kinda figured that comment wouldn't go unnoticed.....so it goes. Sure glad this stuff is easy to repair. Acutally, when I was drilling out my holes through the cowling and wing ledge to connect the two with nutplates, one of the holes was over an acces hole to the aileron control, thus providing only a void to secure the nutplate. The holes looked so nice and evenly spaced too. DOH! Velocity does not specify any right way. It is one of those trial and error, figure it out as you go steps, that is neglected in the manual.

I do remember the micro v superfill comments on your site and it was one of the reasons I delayed using it for so long. Again, I am in the final finishing stages (well, compared to how much has been done with "pure" micro), so the bit of Superfill does not bother me. I appreciate the convenyance of the Superfill. The blue color does not bother me and it seems to just highlight the work I was focusing on.

Thanks again guys/girls.

All the best,

Chris
__________________
Chris Barber
www.LoneStarVelocity.com
Houston, Texas
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-29-2006, 11:09 PM
UFO Builder's Avatar
UFO Builder UFO Builder is offline
Determined Builder 98+18%
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Up North
Posts: 206
Default

I haven't been able to mix micro lighter than superfil OR aeropoxy lite.

At 3.5 or 4lbs / gallon, that would be about 2.5 parts micro to MGS by volume!

It sets really fast though, and sands like a dream!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.