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  #1  
Old 01-09-2007, 10:19 AM
Dennis Passey's Avatar
Dennis Passey Dennis Passey is offline
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Default Gettin Tipsy, fell over backwards.

How many tips or near tip over backward incidents have there been? Maybe a poll would raise peoples conscious effort to reinforce the routines that avoid this. Maybe posters can just explain their routines here?
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  #2  
Old 01-09-2007, 11:01 AM
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1 1/2 tip-overs

I was pushing my EZ out of the hangar (I always lift from the front of the canard and push backwards) very slowly. There is a small drainage trough in the tarmac (made of concrete and runs the full length of the ramp). Although this trough is only about 3 inches deep, it was enough to catch the mains. As the EZ came to a stop, the canard very, very slowly started to raise. The plane came to a rest pointing skyward, and resting on the winglets . I'm not a heavy person, but there I was, hanging by the canard, about three feet in the air. A minute or two of screaming for HELP finally got someones attention in the hangar. Fortunately, there was no damage to the plane. (I've heard that this normally crunches the wheel pants)

The 1/2 was an "almost" that happened in my hangar because I got in a hurry. I had just gotten out of the plane and bent over to pick up something I dropped. While I was bent over, I seen the nose tire coming off the ground. I immediately jumped up and draped myself over the side of the plane. ALMOST!!!

Here are a couple rules I have.

1) Don't trust ANYONE to help or hold down the plane. ALWAYS retract the nose gear and set it down, PERIOD.

2) NEVER, NEVER leave it unattended while on all three. Someone must be leaning on the canard or on the side at all times. (see rule 1)

3) When moving it, always lift from the front of the canard, and push it backwards. Keep the canard low and be prepared to jump on the canard if it starts going over backwards.

4) Normally, I will refuse helpers. If I do need helpers, I get them to push on the canard with specific instructions to NOT lift the canard. DON'T PUSH ON THE WINGS, this creates a significant "lifting" at the canard and makes it very difficult to control.

5) On those rare occasions that I do need to push forward (i.e. across grass), I keep my right arm draped inside the fuselage. This way if I trip or fall, I'll be hanging from the left side of the fuselage. (Helpers should push at the prop, NOT at the wing.

I have a laminated placard that I place on the canard whenever I leave my plane parked unattended. (SEE attached file, Microsoft WORD format)

Waiter
Attached Files
File Type: doc LONG EZ 3.doc (19.0 KB, 97 views)
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Last edited by Waiter : 01-09-2007 at 11:17 AM.
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  #3  
Old 01-09-2007, 11:40 AM
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That is one of the things I mentioned in the other thread:
- In all hangars in Finland, there are multiple planes stored in one big hall and everyone of them must be movable at any time by the operator of the hangar. The operator of the hangar has no prior experience on moving any canard aircraft, so it must be somehow else ensure that the plane will not tip over when these guys do their pushing wrong because they will do it. If it gets too complicated for them, I would be out of the hangar and instead of going to next hangar that don't exist (there is only one big overpriced hangar for our airport) or to next airport that don't exist either, the plane would be left outside to the cold Finnish winter which can get up to -30 degrees Celcius at worst when it is not about zero degrees and raining a nice mixture of snow and water which will break the plane if it gets frozen inside its structures. Not the problem of today, but will become a problem if I do not address this as a technical issue and leave it for precautions and instructions that will not be followed anyway by those who move the aircraft about once per hour every day per week when it is flying weather (the internals of hangar gets rearranged about once per hour when planes get out and in, the huge hangar doors are opened periodically).
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  #4  
Old 01-09-2007, 11:53 AM
Wayne Hicks Wayne Hicks is offline
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Solution:
(1) Get a 5-gallon bucket.
(2) Fashion a hook thingy (an anchor point) from rebar and place into bucket. (An anchor for a mobile home works nicely.)
(3) Pour concrete into bucket. Let cure.
(4) Place bucket-o-concrete (BOC) into front seat when Finnished flying ("Finnished" -- get it?).

The BOC is more than enough weight to prevent the plane from becoming tippy. Heck you could leave the plane with the nose gear deployed.

Sure, that's a lot of weight to haul in and out of the plane. An alternate solution is to modify the nose gear backing plane with an eyelet and hang a smaller weight from it. Just remember to "remove before flight". Better yet, just "relocate to ballast compartment before flight." That way you always have it with you.

I'm installing my engine right now. I have the 5-gallon BOC sitting in the canard slot in the fuselage. The plane cannot flip over backward.
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  #5  
Old 01-09-2007, 11:55 AM
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Karoliina;

When I was sharing my hangar, we all had "nose carts", little four wheel castored dollies. There was no reason to lift the nose off the cart. We painted guide lines on the floor. As long as everyone kept their mains on their guide line, it was impossible to have "hangar collisions"

ALSO, if possible, try and share the hangar with EZs only, that way, everybody is familiar with the ground operations.

Waiter
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  #6  
Old 01-09-2007, 12:04 PM
Lynn Erickson Lynn Erickson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karoliina View Post
That is one of the things I mentioned in the other thread:
- In all hangars in Finland, there are multiple planes stored in one big hall and everyone of them must be movable at any time by the operator of the hangar. The operator of the hangar has no prior experience on moving any canard aircraft, so it must be somehow else ensure that the plane will not tip over when these guys do their pushing wrong because they will do it. If it gets too complicated for them, I would be out of the hangar and instead of going to next hangar that don't exist (there is only one big overpriced hangar for our airport) or to next airport that don't exist either, the plane would be left outside to the cold Finnish winter which can get up to -30 degrees Celcius at worst when it is not about zero degrees and raining a nice mixture of snow and water which will break the plane if it gets frozen inside its structures. Not the problem of today, but will become a problem if I do not address this as a technical issue and leave it for precautions and instructions that will not be followed anyway by those who move the aircraft about once per hour every day per week when it is flying weather (the internals of hangar gets rearranged about once per hour when planes get out and in, the huge hangar doors are opened periodically).
The best way is for you to place weights in the plane when you are done and leave the nose gear extended. they will not need any procedure other than to push the plane by the nose or the prop. the plane will move like any other. the other is to set the nose on a dolly that rolls easily, this is good in the hanger but is not as good if they need to move outside on ruff tarmac. they tend to hit more things with it is nose down and try to put it under other aircraft and can damage the canopy or canard. leave it on all three wheels as other aircraft, they will do better and you are paying for that space so why take a chance by letting them put it under an other aircraft and damage the canopy or canard. the bigger the aircraft the more care they give it.
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  #7  
Old 01-09-2007, 12:40 PM
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There are no canard aircraft in Finland except 1 cozy (elsewhere) + 1 speed canard (not airworthy, in someone's garden)
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  #8  
Old 01-09-2007, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiter View Post
1 1/2 tip-overs Waiter
heh heh heh - need anyone say more
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  #9  
Old 01-09-2007, 01:53 PM
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Dennis Passey Dennis Passey is offline
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Dust- the purpose of this thread is NOT to GLOAT- it is to exchange procedures and ideas and be REAL. Waiters got a lot of game and has figured out how to work his situation. If you've got a constructive procedure that you are ACTUALLY GOING TO USE OR BUILD into YOUR plane, post it... or, respectfully... Put a SOCK in it, man.
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Old 01-09-2007, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Passey View Post
If you've got a constructive procedure that you are ACTUALLY GOING TO USE OR BUILD into YOUR plane, post it... or, respectfully... Put a SOCK in it, man.
Too late for me - chapter 9 - installing the gear was the time to make the change and I'm not going to do it again - did it twice already.

The procedures are simple - just never forget to either leave the gear up when not sitting in it, slightly nose down when not.

Or - change the geometry during the build to stop it from occurring in the first place
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  #11  
Old 01-09-2007, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiter View Post
When I was sharing my hangar, we all had "nose carts", little four wheel castored dollies.
I always had a thought of epoxying a recessed socket into the nose of the plane and having a two wheel dolly with a pin in the middle that fit into the socket. That way you can even put a tow pin on the front of it and move the plane around with a tug or with a handled towbar. I'd still want to put some weight on the front seat to make sure it didnt bounce up if you hit a large bump.
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:29 PM
Phil Kriley Phil Kriley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiter View Post
1 1/2 tip-overs

I was pushing my EZ out of the hangar (I always lift from the front of the canard and push backwards) very slowly. There is a small drainage trough in the tarmac (made of concrete and runs the full length of the ramp). Although this trough is only about 3 inches deep, it was enough to catch the mains. As the EZ came to a stop, the canard very, very slowly started to raise. The plane came to a rest pointing skyward, and resting on the winglets . I'm not a heavy person, but there I was, hanging by the canard, about three feet in the air. Waiter
Are you saying that you cannot fly your plane when solo? If you could not stop the plane from tipping by hanging on to the canard, how do you fly it?
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  #13  
Old 01-09-2007, 05:07 PM
SteveWrightNZ SteveWrightNZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Kriley View Post
If you could not stop the plane from tipping by hanging on to the canard, how do you fly it?
It is easy to hold the canard down, but if it gets going it is hard to stop it as forces increase rapidly - trebuchet stylez.

edit: http://www.eskimo.com/~verne/catapult.htm

S
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  #14  
Old 01-09-2007, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
If you could not stop the plane from tipping by hanging on to the canard, how do you fly it?
I'm not sure, probably because the plane was moving and had inertia that I couldn't overcome. i.e. the wheels were stopped, but the fuselage kept moving. Under this condition, the only way the fuselage could continue to move, was to tip up. Also, the farther back the plane tips, the more weight that is needed to keep it from tipping back.

In retrospect, my biggest mistake was trying to hold it down. I should have gotten more aggressive faster. i.e. immediately wrap my arms all the way around the canard and literally "hang" from the canard. (This is now my #1 approach if this happens again)

I know one thing, when its resting on the lower winglets, I don't have enough behind to pull the canard back down. I weigh about 165, and probably needed 166 to do it.

SIDE NOTE - BUT STILL ON THE TIP OVER SUBJECT:

After landing, I normally hold the canard off to bleed off speed. During this process, I'm careful not to let the canard get to high, as I could easily strike the prop, and even tip over backwards. During this process, I can fell the stick (elevator) getting very light, even though the canard is still at or slightly above the horizon, a slight jab of the brakes brings the canard back down.

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  #15  
Old 01-09-2007, 07:47 PM
argoldman argoldman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Kriley View Post
Are you saying that you cannot fly your plane when solo? If you could not stop the plane from tipping by hanging on to the canard, how do you fly it?
Phil,

As the plane, on the ground, around the main gear, is doing it's Hi-Ho Silver act the CG is moving backward rapidly aft of the wheels which act as a pivot point yielding the unstoppable results. In flight, with the proper CG , in spite of the rearward shift, it maintains a cg forward of the wheels, on the ground as, the nose wheel lifts off. Once in the air, the wheels have no axliary effect.

Talk about a run-on sentence---
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