Canard Community Forum  

Go Back   Canard Community Forum > Landing Gear, Wheels, Tires, and Brakes
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 01-26-2007, 11:30 AM
Dust's Avatar
Dust Dust is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 7,963
Default

when da plane flies it relies on da wings - da wheels just hang around, movin dem back and forth to change the rolling CG does not change da flying CG
__________________
Enjoy the build,njut av byggandet, godere il costruire, nyd bygningen, geniesse den Bau, apolafse tin kataskevi, disfrute la construcción, curta a construção, Pidä hauskaa rakentamisen parissa, bouw lekker,uživaj grade?inaslajdaites postroikoi, geniet die bou
dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-26-2007, 11:33 AM
Phil Kriley Phil Kriley is offline
Phil Kriley
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Renfrew, PA
Posts: 179
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust View Post
Does not change the "air" part of flying
It does if changes to the canard are needed to compensate for the rearward gear movement. As was noted, moving the gear aft means that the canard/elevator size/throw will have to be changed to get the nose off the ground - and that could mean compromising the safety designed into the plane to avoid a main wing stall.
__________________
Phil Kriley
N87PR
Plans #1460
Chapter 9, Step 1
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01-26-2007, 12:44 PM
Waiter's Avatar
Waiter Waiter is offline
LongEZ-RG
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northwestern Ohio
Posts: 1,096
Default

Quote:
when da plane flies it relies on da wings - da wheels just hang around, movin dem back and forth to change the rolling CG does not change da flying CG
So what your saying is; "I can move 50 lbs, 10 inches back, and it does not effect my CG".

Please review my post again, and take a look at the weight and balance spreadsheet. If you still come to this conclusion, then I believe it would be in your best interest to spend some time with a CFI and learn how to perform a Weight and Balance!

Waiter
__________________
F16 performance on a Piper Cub budget
LongEZ, 160hp, MT CS Prop, Downdraft cooling, Full retract
visit: www.iflyez.com

Last edited by Waiter : 01-26-2007 at 01:24 PM. Reason: Brain Damage
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 01-26-2007, 01:00 PM
SteveWrightNZ SteveWrightNZ is offline
builder wannabe
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Bay of Plenty, New Zealand
Posts: 771
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by satch View Post
The quote is stated as fact when it should be opinion ... informed or not is a different discussion, but it's not a fact.
you are projecting. There are NO FACTS on the Internet - only opinion. If you take facts from the internet(sic) you will get burned.

S
__________________
A dolphin breaths through an asshole on the top of its head. (Billy age 8)
http://canardaviationwiki.dmt.net/wi...:SteveWrightNZ
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-26-2007, 02:00 PM
levansic's Avatar
levansic levansic is offline
Back to square one
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tehachapi, California
Posts: 499
Default

Mike Melvill told me that the effect on flight characteristics would be negligible, and that basically, the noticeable change would be in takeoff roll. A more aft CG would tend to make the plane less stable, but the change in this characteristic would be much less noticed than the length of runway chewed up while trying to get airborne. Hot, high or humid magnifies the issue.

-- Len
__________________
-- Len Evansic, Cozy Mk. IV Plans #1283
Do you need a customized Flightline Chair?
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-26-2007, 08:30 PM
Dust's Avatar
Dust Dust is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 7,963
Default

waiter - you are installing retracts and shifting/adding weight. I am talkin about re angling the mains - apples and oranges
__________________
Enjoy the build,njut av byggandet, godere il costruire, nyd bygningen, geniesse den Bau, apolafse tin kataskevi, disfrute la construcción, curta a construção, Pidä hauskaa rakentamisen parissa, bouw lekker,uživaj grade?inaslajdaites postroikoi, geniet die bou
dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 01-26-2007, 08:32 PM
John Slade's Avatar
John Slade John Slade is offline
Flying TurboRotaryCozyIV
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: KWST
Posts: 3,836
Default

Quote:
OK, I just had a conversation with Mike Melvill about moving the main gears aft. He said that on an EZ or a Cozy built to plans, a one inch rearward movement of the mains will cause a large increase in takeoff roll. When I asked about a six inch shift, his face looked like this
I'd have thought that this report would put the matter to bed. No? What am I missing?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 01-26-2007, 08:45 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tehachapi, CA 93561
Posts: 1,083
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade View Post
I'd have thought that this report would put the matter to bed. No? What am I missing?
Is that a rhetorical question, John, or do you really need the answer spelled out for you? :-).
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 01-26-2007, 08:57 PM
Waiter's Avatar
Waiter Waiter is offline
LongEZ-RG
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northwestern Ohio
Posts: 1,096
Default

Quote:
waiter - you are installing retracts and shifting/adding weight. I am talkin about re angling the mains - apples and oranges
Actually, my gear is in exactly the same position as the plans gear. The tires are at 110.5, and the tilt angle is exactly the same as the fixed gear.

I don't know if its strictly cosmetic, or if there is a structural reason, but when you park an EZ on it nose, the gear stands almost vertical. I assume in your modification, the gear will be tilting forward when its parked on its nose

If you maintain the original attach point, but mount the bow with less tilt angle, this will still alter the CG. but ony a small amount compared to our "10" inch example.

HOWEVER, When you weigh the plane, use extra care to make sure you enter your new tire position for the scale readings and not the original plans position.

Waiter
__________________
F16 performance on a Piper Cub budget
LongEZ, 160hp, MT CS Prop, Downdraft cooling, Full retract
visit: www.iflyez.com

Last edited by Waiter : 01-26-2007 at 09:03 PM. Reason: Brain Damage
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 01-26-2007, 09:15 PM
John Slade's Avatar
John Slade John Slade is offline
Flying TurboRotaryCozyIV
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: KWST
Posts: 3,836
Default

Quote:
do you really need the answer spelled out for you?
I don't need it spelled out. My main gear is already installed. I was thinking that anyone still considering this modification after such a dramatic reaction from a canard builer with Mike Mellvill's experience might need to have it spelled out a bit more.

I'd hate to see anyone taxi back from the first (long runway) high speed taxi-test and have to take out the sawsall.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 01-26-2007, 09:38 PM
Dennis Passey's Avatar
Dennis Passey Dennis Passey is offline
MarkIV N513DP Cozy540Xtra
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Monterey, Calif
Posts: 783
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade View Post

I'd hate to see anyone taxi back from the first (long runway) high speed taxi-test and have to take out the sawsall.
Revisiting my past post on this thread - I thank you John for concurring. Quite a price to pay for 'being sure' one could cure that darn nose down parking limitaton.
__________________
Build the dream, Fly the dream.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 01-26-2007, 11:50 PM
audioflyer's Avatar
audioflyer audioflyer is offline
Cozy dreamer
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: murfreesboro, tn
Posts: 50
Default

Going back to the StaggerEZ, Steve gave me a ride in it a few months back, about a 20 minute hop from one airport back to his home airport MQY, the same airport where I got my Private training. He let me fly it a little en route, but I guess he thought I was being too gentle because not long after, he put on "Highway to the Danger Zone" on his panel mount iPod Nano and started doing some very steep turns!

It was awesome, and being the Cozy novice I am I don't have much meaningful to contribute to the conversation. I don't recall the takeoff roll, but it didn't seem noticeably long. One interesting thing I noticed was that he does not have a landing brake, just uses slips and both rudders for dumping speed and altitude. He also said that while he did place the gear farther apart to enable him to use non-paved runways, he had never done so (maybe he has since then). He did build a Varieze, back in the early days, and spent I believe 16 years designing and building the Stagger. One other item of interest is the dihedral (i think that's the right word) in the canard (where they form a slight "V" as seen from the front). I think I remember him saying he would recommend this to Cozy builders to increase stability (but don't quote me on that). He also recommends the staggered seating configuration, mainly as a means of adding shoulder space. I think I'll probably go ahead with the four seats, just to have the option of carrying four people.

Overall, Steve struck me as a very knowledgeable guy, with an incredibly gorgeous aircraft. Also super nice, he offered to take my wife up sometime, which I'll probably take him up on if I am trying to sell her on the build. As I mentioned in another thread, I'm waiting to see if I am selected for an Air Force pilot slot before I bring it up again with the Mrs.

Here are a couple of shots I took with my phone on the day he gave me a ride:


Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 01-27-2007, 12:31 AM
John Slade's Avatar
John Slade John Slade is offline
Flying TurboRotaryCozyIV
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: KWST
Posts: 3,836
Default

Certainly is a nice looking plane.

Quote:
I'm waiting to see if I am selected for an Air Force pilot slot
Good luck. I remember the feeling well. I received "yes" letters from the RAF and BA (then BOAC) on the same day. Oh what a feeling! Hmmm. bus driver or fighter pilot? Guess which one I took.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 01-27-2007, 05:00 PM
Dennis Passey's Avatar
Dennis Passey Dennis Passey is offline
MarkIV N513DP Cozy540Xtra
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Monterey, Calif
Posts: 783
Default

I know as we look at Steves Staggereze- Dust is looking at US as if we are the priests gawking at the Blasphemous heretic idol lounging quietly in the hanger half light.
Fact is, for the new guys, its a major departure from the Mark IV planform and Steve apparently was the guy to work it out. Great looking plane. I just think its worth re-mentioning that its a re-design and the Mike Melville comment is a valid and tenable review of the Mark IV placement of the mains.
Takes nothing away from this great plane of Steves- Theres a lot more than just the mains being moved back- going on with it.
I find it amusing- the idea of a 'dragrace' into the sky with Marc and Steve...Maybe we should invite 'Pinks'!
__________________
Build the dream, Fly the dream.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 01-27-2007, 06:08 PM
John Slade's Avatar
John Slade John Slade is offline
Flying TurboRotaryCozyIV
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: KWST
Posts: 3,836
Default

Quote:
a 'dragrace' into the sky with Marc and Steve...
Can the Kitty come too
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.