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  #1  
Old 07-26-2004, 10:15 AM
Wapati8's Avatar
Wapati8 Wapati8 is offline
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Lightbulb SixZ

Development of the custom designed six(+) place EZ style aircraft

Here is what I originally posted in my new member introduction...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wapati8
I have read on one of your sites that they spoke to a Long EZ builder who was sad he hadn't built something like a Cozy MK IV because he couldn't give up a plane he had built, he really wanted a MK IV because of the convenience, and he didn't think he had it in him to build another plane.

So I sat down and wrote down what my requirements were.

1. at least Six people and gear.
2. Plans built
3. Cross country flight

So this is what I have come up with. I plan to increase the cabin until it will accommodate three people across the back seat, allow the addition of two seats in the middle of the cabin. So what you end up with is two (pilot and copilot), two middle, and three rear. Then I was going to see how much bigger that was than a cozy MK IV cabin and increase the rest of the aircraft by that percentage.

I know I am crazy. I plan to be extra careful with CG. I hope to find someone with computer modeling software to test it for me, or just buy some on my own. Why am I so obsessed with building this airplane? I can't figure it out.

The plan is to use a fuel injected 20b rotary engine with custom prop. Retractable Gear (infinity? even their nose gear), and modify the MK IV plans.

Ok now everyone tell me I'm crazy.

Ok now who's willing to give me advice and encouragement?


I have gotten very cool feedback already! Here is what some of you have said...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
Let's take a different tack here and collaberate on designing the Cozy VI. It's not very different. All you have to do is reverse the position of two letters.

Awesome!


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
My first suggestion is that maybe a six seater should be a twin. Two 13B's in nacelles?

I had this same idea but I didn't know anything about how to design it, so I thought sticking to a fuel injected, turbo, 20b, and using the same basic design, as the MK IV would do the trick. Now I am thinking it would be cool to design and build both. A six or seven seat version of a Defiant also crossed my mind. (This coming from a guy who has never laid a layer of glass in his life ).


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
And, by the way, there's no sign of my new turbo, so I'm fixing the roof

I am really bumbed about that. I need closure… I need your turbo to work! Mainly because I have been living vicariously through your website, but also because I want to use the same technique. I just don’t want to spend 4-5 grand on a turbo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LargePrime
Let us know how we can help.

Just responding to my posting helps. It makes things more real (at least feel more real). Of course as the months go by I will definitely asking technical advice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LargePrime
Most 6 place aircraft I see are about 300HP. I would think a turbo rotary would be a good fit for that.
That is why I want to use the rotary engine. Light, powerful, and cost effective. I think the thing I may like the most is the reliability combined with the smooth operation (Not as much vibration as a regular opposed piston engine).

For the single engine six seater I would like to use a turbo fuel injected 20b rotary engine... I would like to use Tracy's fuel injection computer that allows you to control throttle and fuel mixture. I am wondering if anyone could guess what what kind of horse power that could yield. I have heard the engine is right around 300hp naturally carborated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LargePrime
You might consider selling plans to it,
OR
developing an "open source" type project, where all the engineering and development data, and drawings are in the public domain.

No profit, but no liability, probably higher quality (open peer review), and popularity. (free and open)

Okay lets do both. I will develop it. Post everything on a website (yet to be created) I will write up the plans. Post my progress as I go for everyone to see and comment on. I will archive everything. It will be my money, my time, and my butt on the line.

You guys can help me get all of the knowledgeable people in this field to comment and contribute. Then when it is successful I will compile and abridge everything into one set of tried and tested plans. Then revisit the selling them.

What do you think?

---Mike

Continuing on with the thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by StRaNgEdAyS
Just as crazy as the rest of us!

Thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by StRaNgEdAyS
I'll be offering as much of both as I can, I have an expanding family and I'll be wanting to build a 6+ seat aircraft for plane #3, and dearly want to build a Rutan based canard design.

So glad I am not the only one!



Quote:
Originally Posted by StRaNgEdAyS
Unfortunately there exists no current design for a plans built 6 seat canard

Exactly...




Quote:
Originally Posted by StRaNgEdAyS
your idea certainly fits along the ideas of more than a few of the members here. With any luck the collaboration of the mebers here can lead to a Crazy(not Cozy)VI or VII?

So let it be written... The Crazy MK VI/VII is born.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo
OK, I'll bite...

Just make everything according to plans only multiply everything by .25%
You won't have to worry about the airframe, just the stuff you put in it.

That's the KISS system...

Too late for me...I already am 1/10 done and 200% to go..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust
OK, the Cozy is a 2+2

2 people with geeear
3 with with gear
4 with fresh under-ware

So, your first thought change is how much you need to change the plane to accommodate your desires.

The plans will be just a little bit of a start, not much as this appears to be a tripling of internal space.

Not throwing water on you, just trying to get you to understand what you are doing, sorta like adding a floor to a sky scraper, you have to add it to the bottom, as the rest of it was only designed to carry what is above it.
I understand it is a redesign. I will approach it using Clutch Cargo's basic idea... just increase the total plan a certain percentage and go from there.

Trying to Keep it Simple... I know it may not be simple.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust
OK I'm biting

seating/storage

2
2
2
gear

or

3
3
gear

Also, strangedays and others more engineering minded will bring this up, but, i believe strength is geometric, not linear, so double the spar size and the strength goes up dramatically, and probably the weight too, twice the size of the spar and it is probably 4 times stronger and 4 times heavier.

with the weight of 6 and gear, i don't think 300 hp will do it and you will need WAY more fuel, 25 gals an hour?

turbotag, where are your thoughts and computations going
I am thinking of making the entire plane about 33% larger... This would leave a crawl/kneel/walk space between the seats of the first and second row. I will custom design a bulkhead that will be right behind the pilot and copilot. The second row of seats will face backwards, with thier backs to the bulkhead that seperates them from the pilot and copilot. The third row of seats will face forward and could have two seats or a bench seat that could accomodate up to three.

My initial thought is to use a forward opening canopy for the pilot and copilot, and gull wing doors for the rear compartment. I will post a three view of what I am talking about.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LargePrime
I suggest 3+3.

1) Keeps the Cg in the same range. Need to test the left-right CG and see how changes effect flight.
2) front seat weight will be effected if we lengthen the fuse to get another row of seats. We cant go back because of the spar.

Need to think about the wings. Just lengthen or look for another profile? Ask Jon Roncz about the canard?

I humbly suggest we consider thickening the strakes as they approach the fuse. Turn the craft into more of a blended wing body aircraft. And eliminate the intersection. And add storage in the strake. And perhaps fuel.

These changes could cascade, so we should set priorities.

What is the most important thing for a COZY VI?

Mission? Efficiency? Ease of construction? Cheap? Something else?

Should we consider not referring to this as a cozy out of respect for Nat? I like the Cozy VI. It is very cool, but I think Nat wont like it at all.

We have a Big EZ. EZ6? Anything else?
FAST (200+ MILES AN HOUR), COMFORTABLE CROSS COUNTRY FLIGHT, WITH GOOD RANGE, FOR SIX WITH A CARRY ON SUITECASE. Is that specific enough for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBarber
SixZ......market it as the sexy SixZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargePrime
anyone second the motion?

Against?
I do...

I have been considering calling it the EZ6... but SixZ has a ring to it.

I like it!

Now lets move this string out of introductions... What say you?

I have created this new thread...

SixZ

Lets keep this thread here, let it graduate from introductions.

---Mike

Last edited by Wapati8 : 07-26-2004 at 11:16 AM.
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  #2  
Old 07-26-2004, 03:13 PM
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LargePrime LargePrime is offline
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Lets first tackle luggage.

The long EZ flyers will tell you that there is no room for a "carry on". Most all of them can get the luggage for two, for a week, in a long.
I have read about putting clothing in bags and sitting on them, after removing the cusions. Soft sided duffle bags stuff in strakes easy.
Every discussion I have read is about changing the way you approch travel and luggage.

Right now the cozy is a 4 place if every one is only bringing a smile. A two place with luggage. Most all four place aircraft are the same in this regard.

If you are suggesting a 6 place AND luggage, you need not 33% more, but 300% more.

So you see why we need to get that straight right away.
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Old 07-26-2004, 11:44 PM
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Default sexy-v1

i wonder if it could be so easy to just cut my tub 2 ways and then 25% all the rest ? given the 18G spar its got and the 12 g wing..and some one give a good guess as for the canard. but mabe 2 13b ? so i can go find the spaceship 1 or buzz dust. So when we starting ? i got saw !
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  #4  
Old 07-26-2004, 11:51 PM
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Canard 14 g's and the holding fixture broke
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  #5  
Old 07-27-2004, 12:01 AM
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Default opps.......

o...sorry ty dust, i havent read the engineers report when they did the build and test part of the wings and spar
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  #6  
Old 07-27-2004, 09:21 AM
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StRaNgEdAyS StRaNgEdAyS is offline
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Ok, just a couple of observations.
Firstly, it was suugested that it be a 3+3
not such a good idea, as you're going to have someone in the middle where the throttle quadrant goes, and call me a traditionalist, but I like to have my cockpit area 2 person area IF it has to have an extra person at all, that way there is minimal confusion in the case of the PIC needing assistance from the right seat in case of an emergency.
I do however like the ideas of a 2+2+2, of better yet, 2+2+3.
It will of course take a little extra working on to get the weight and balances in check, but wit a pair of outboard mounted nacelles, A-la Starship, the room previously used by the single engine can become passenger space. it will just be a little loud in the back being almost next to the engines.
The biggest drama if you are considering using the existing planform, is the increase in wing loading. As I understand it, the current planform is pretty much at it's loading limit carrying 4 people so it is going to require some revision, and a simple upscaling of the existing dimensions is not going to cut it I'm afraid.
There will need to be a revision of the airfoil data, as the requirements for the wing are going to vary considerably for a heavier craft with in wing engine nacelles. A revision of the airflow over the strakes is also going to be needed, as airflow coming from the strake/fuselage joint is going to need to managed effectively in order to get good efficiency from the props, something pusher designs can have serious problems with, not to mention the issues of dealing with the vibration from the props cutting in and out of the disturbed airflow from the fuselage and strakes.
Kinda makes a pair of small turbofans an attracvtive option doesn't it?
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Old 07-27-2004, 09:42 AM
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Turbotag Turbotag is offline
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Ok I have missed this thread somehow.....I am still crunching numbers on the Mark VI (mini-starship). I will post my preliminaries when in a little bit...(System fill in Kansas city this week, Ohio 2weeks later..then I am done with this launch )

Seating configuration is 2 , 2 aft facing, 2 foward facing with space behind for cargo.

The fuse will get wider and taller then Cozy, ( Yes this increases drag and structural requirements)

I plan on moving the wing to the bottom of the fuselage.

Power will be from either 2 13B's or 2 Renesis in nacelles on top of the wing ala starship. I personally think this will help with the cooling issues regardless of the engine choice. And yes there are NVH issues with this arrangement.

I think it was Cbarber that had pictures of a 6 place twin velocity that I found very interesting. But I want to keep this a plans buildable design.

More soon......
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  #8  
Old 07-27-2004, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Seating configuration is 2 , 2 aft facing, 2 foward facing with space behind for cargo.
That sounds like the right direction to me. 3 + 3 would be wide and draggy as well as inconvienient.

Quote:
Power will be from either 2 13B's or 2 Renesis in nacelles on top of the wing ala starship
Yep. Works for me.

Quote:
I plan on moving the wing to the bottom of the fuselage.
I'm not sure why. It would be easier to stick with the Cozy strakes, spar etc. per plans except bigger. This way all you're changing is the length (a lot) and width (a little).
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Old 07-27-2004, 01:26 PM
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Wow! So I'm not the only one thinking about this (I resolved to just build 2 Cozy IV's and let the wife fly the other one in formation... or maybe the kids when they get old enough!)

My thought on this last year was to get to Oshkosh EAA Airventure at the crack of dawn, and start taking measurements of the Piagio Avanti! Then take those measurements and size it down to 6 person! Now what did I do with that giant airfoil template...

They may look at you funny... (who's they anyway, and could they throw you and your tape measure out of the show?) but who cares?!?!?! Just a thought I had a while back that I wanted to throw out there.

So how wide would the canard need to be if we just extended the tub longwise to put an additional pair of seats? Hmmm... may look like a Cozy concord!
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Old 07-27-2004, 01:50 PM
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Default Lower wing

I am still trying to figure out why Burt went to the midwing...other then to put the thrust line through the wing. As I am sure you have seen but may have forgot the Vari-viggen had a low wing.

Lowering the wing allows the spar to pass under the seating and keeps the engine thrust line inline with the fuse. This also will make access to the 4 rear seats easier in that I can keep the "strakes" solid.

This will also allow a different landing gear arrangement.

You are right that I should be able to just grow the Cozy plans for the most part. I was supprised by first numbers at how little the wing really grew to carry the extra weight. I still have several iterations to go but it looks good.

In school we had to do iterative designs increase range, speed, load...etc. and I was aways amazed that the things you think would change the most weren't what you expected. Structure was one of the weird ones and I am least comfortable with composites...if it was aluminum it would be much easier.

Anyway, let the adventure continue........
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Old 07-27-2004, 05:36 PM
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Wapati8 Wapati8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbotag
You are right that I should be able to just grow the Cozy plans for the most part. I was supprised by first numbers at how little the wing really grew to carry the extra weight. I still have several iterations to go but it looks good.

In school we had to do iterative designs increase range, speed, load...etc. and I was aways amazed that the things you think would change the most weren't what you expected. Structure was one of the weird ones and I am least comfortable with composites...if it was aluminum it would be much easier.

Anyway, let the adventure continue........
I feel so primitive compared to Turbotag… and all of you really.

Until I can get a copy of Simplified Aircraft Design for Homebuilders I just went with increasing everything 33%.

Here are the pictures I promised…

I have included the three view I came up with. It is just 33% bigger with a forward opening canopy (yes it could be rear opening) and gull wing doors in the rear compartment. Oh yes notice I added retractable main gear . This plan assumes one turbo fuel injected 20b will do the trick.

I have included the seating diagram I was trying to describe before. I tried to depict in this picture that just behind the pilot and copilot’s seats there is a bulkhead (composite of course) that supports the structure of the fuselage and still allows access into the rear compartment from the front (and vice versa).

I have also included my very rough design of the bulkhead. I realize this may be very over engineered or under engineered.

What do you think?
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  #12  
Old 07-27-2004, 05:40 PM
Zubi Baru Zubi Baru is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LargePrime
I humbly suggest we consider thickening the strakes as they approach the fuse. Turn the craft into more of a blended wing body aircraft. And eliminate the intersection. And add storage in the strake. And perhaps fuel.
Do you mean something like this: http://www.wingco.com/ ? Even 5 seats would be great.
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Old 07-27-2004, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubi Baru
Do you mean something like this: http://www.wingco.com/ ? Even 5 seats would be great.
I have looked at that site before. I don't like the design, just from a looks standpoint.

Isn't there a five place Velocity?



I want to keep it plans built.

I would think that the Cozy would be easily modified to achieve this. That's far short of what I am trying to achieve however...

Last edited by Wapati8 : 07-27-2004 at 06:08 PM.
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  #14  
Old 07-27-2004, 07:33 PM
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The five place Velo (the dash-5) is two adults up front and three childen in back. It is the XL model with a rear bench seat instead of bucket seats. They beef up the landing gear with carbon for wieght due to larger engine and extra payload. I think they beef up a couple of other part too.

Chris
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Old 07-27-2004, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wapati8
Oh yes notice I added retractable main gear . This plan assumes one turbo fuel injected 20b will do the trick.
At that width, one 20b per wing and maybe a center one too should do it. You drew a really big plane, looks to me like a cabin class twin turbo
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maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
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