Canard Community Forum  

Go Back   Canard Community Forum > Safety > Accident Reports
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 05-29-2007, 08:15 AM
Leon Leon is offline
slightly crazy
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Austria
Posts: 381
Default

you really want to compare a long eze to a 4 seat conventional aircraft ? ... ok now it's drifting into rediculous lynn, sorry.

i do not know what makes the thielerts the way they are, I just think they're not at their best yet. they will definitely gain a large market over the next few years.

just to make things clear, da40 is a four seat normal configuration aircraft
da42 is a twin engine 4 seater aircraft incl. anti ice and oxygen.

another difference ?
the diamonds are certified aircraft. wether this is good or bad, is for one's self to judge.

the comparison you brought is like comparing apples and bananas, yes they both grow on trees, but thats about is ...
__________________
-- future insane homebuilder --
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-29-2007, 11:40 AM
TMann's Avatar
TMann TMann is offline
Got Foam?
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 756
Default

Quote:
....is like comparing apples and bananas....
Did somebody say 'bananas?'
__________________
T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpt 10 N200LZ
Got Foam?
Mann's Airplane Factory
We add rocket's to everything!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-29-2007, 03:10 PM
Control's Avatar
Control Control is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 131
Default

Hm, on monday I will do my low-alt navigation flying in a da40 as part of my CPL training. I'll try not to think about the issues with thielert while I fly over forrest areas at 500ftAGL
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-29-2007, 03:35 PM
karoliina's Avatar
karoliina karoliina is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 417
Default

Well, I am pretty positive that it is as safe as it can get on forced landing. The plane is now partly disassembled and there are not only two or three plys laid up, but there are many and it is a monococue structure with a lots of convex surfaces which contributes some more to the strength.

However, based on the damaged wing, the airex foam (type based on the colour of the foam, I have some airex sheets here) under the wing skin is pretty thin which makes it harder to repair than a moldless composite wing.
__________________
http://www.karoliinasalminen.com/blog
DISCLAIMER: This message was written in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
--- Plans #000 at concepting stage ---
JAA-PPL(A) with NF & RT/E, UPL. WT9-Dynamic, TL-96 Star, Zephyr 2000, C152, C172 (& waiting the crashed diesel planes to get fixed )
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-29-2007, 06:35 PM
Clutch Cargo's Avatar
Clutch Cargo Clutch Cargo is offline
w/ Spinner and Paddlefoot
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cape Coral, FL
Posts: 602
Lightbulb Hell Sinky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karoliina View Post
One simple thing: economy and environmental values.

A plane with consumption of JET-A1 5 gallons per hour at 1 EUR per liter is very inexpensive to operate. Fuel cost $24 per hour with JET-A1.

A plane with similar performance, e.g. DA-40-180:
Fuel cost ~$78, 100LL with AVGAS - formidably more expensive than JET-A1.

Average 200 hours per year fuel cost for DA-40TDI:
200*24 = $4800

Average 200 hours per year fuel cost for DA-40-180 or any other plane with the IO-360:
200*78 = $15600

In 10 years one saves with only the difference a price of used Diamond DA-40TDI very easily.

The caused pollution, CO2 etc. simply is lower on engine which burns fuel more efficiently.

Difference: 15600-4800 = $10800 per year.
What would you do with 10800 per year extra money?
With DA-40TDI you could buy fuel for additional 450 flight hours.
I think there is plenty of use for it. If you think that the engine package cost for the diesel is about the same or even a bit less than comparable Lycoming (320...360) with MT Propeller CS prop and the FADEC the package contains, you don't lose that even on the engine price. Besides of that it is very nice to operate with FADEC, it runs smoothly with less noise than Lycoming to the cockpit and it is also for the outsiders a lot more silent than a gasoline aircraft engine, even if it would be equipped with a silencer that they usually are not. The Thielert sounds like a car in the sky - a lot less complains in congested Helsinki area with operating a relatively silent aircraft. And of course it is new technology, the Lycomings are ancient and they fail because they are weak on places (according to what CAA (=FAA equivalent) have reported), Thielert have problems because it is new and may have some unfound bugs which will get fixed, and eventually it has chance to be the most reliable aircraft engine for single engine piston aircraft. Any new engine is subject to bugs, I am waiting for the reports starting with Deltahawk...
I'm sure the pilot was thinking about those things as he was treading water in his clothes and hoping the airplane would not "sink". I have always appreciated the products of the superior German feats of engineering that have made their way over to the US of A.

Here is a quote from their web page (in English)

"In addition to focusing on the automotive industry we realize modern engine concepts for general aviation aircraft and UAV. Our jet fuel piston engines reduce direct operating costs by up to 60 percent, compared to today's standard aircraft engines. From digital engine management to flight-data loggers, we develop, manufacture and sell a standard, so far reserved for jet engines.

Design, manufacturing and testing {italics mine} are our main areas of activity. We work with our customers from the initial concept to serial production and manufacture small series production lots in-house. "

I think they need to do more of one of their "main areas of activity". Interesting how hard Lyc, Conti, Pratt and Whitney, Rolls Royce, Porsche, and the list goes on of those who had better initial records that had to jump through the FAA's merciless hoops to get certified. Even now if a plane goes down and they find a booger on a crankshaft, **BAM** an AD!

I wonder how they got certified? Well, here is a press release from September 2005:

"Lichtenstein – The efficient Centurion 1.7 jet fuel piston aircraft engine has become a synonym for state-of-the-art engine technology in General Aviation. {Italics mine. **Cough BS Cough**} The manufacturer, Thielert Aircraft Engines GmbH (TAE), celebrated the inaugural flight with this engine on 9 September 2005 for the fifth time. {Italics mine. They don't mention that it is the 5th anniversary of the inaugural flight, but it is the 5th celebration!} Until now this engine has accumulated 75,000 flight hours {Italics mine. 15,000 flight hours per year is 50 hours per day if you don't work weekends. If you worked 365 days per year, that would be 24 hours and 20 minutes per day for each year for 5 years. Their pilots must be dead tired! Unless they were using more than one engine which means the stated data is useless and misleading: ie. "this engine". Even with 6 engines in 6 airplanes the pilots would spend half of a working day flying or sitting on the tarmac 365 days a year for 5 years! In that case, what did they miss with such exhaustive testing that happens in real life in 100th of their claimed testing time?} and is installed in general aviation aircraft as well as in Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs). {My Italics. Maybe they should stick to UAVs until they use the accumulated time for further testing on test dummies} Recently the installation in further aviation models was approved: Robin DR400, Cessna 172 F, G, H and I series as well as in the USA for the Diamond DA42. Nine additional service centres comprise the global service network for the Centurion engines.

5 Years on from the first flight

Despite being a young company, TAE celebrated two anniversaries in 2005. In the summer the company celebrated five years of production at its plant in Lichtenstein (Saxony, Germany). And on 9 September 2005 it celebrated the fifth anniversary of the inaugural flight with a TAE piston engine. {Italics mine. Ah now they celebrate the 5th anniversary of production! Of what? Read on} On that day in 2000 a Valentin Taifun power glider took off from the Altenburg airfield with the prototype TAE 110 engine. {Italics mine. Oh! A (one) powerglider took off with THE (one) prototype TAE 110 engine. September 2000. But I thought they celebrated (5 times) the inaugural flight of the Centurion 1.7 in September 2000. Wait could it be they are celebrating the same engine inauguration? The first sentence of that paragraph says "two anniversaries in 2005". Confused? Well in the summer they celebrated 5 years of production of **something**, the first aircraft engine took off
(didn't say how the landing was) in September: Celebration #2. It gets better. Read on.} In March 2001 the TAE 110 became the world’s first diesel engine to receive approval from the Luftfahrt-Bundesamt (German Federal Office of Civil Aviation). The TAE gave rise to today’s Centurion 1.7 production engine,{Italics mine. Todays Centurion production engine came from the TAE? They don't say exactly when it "gave rise" but common sense tells you that the data gathered from the TAE would be used to manufacture or alter the now "successful" (after 7 months) TAE to "give rise" to the C 1.7, which may have magically appeared immediately using the gathered data, but probably not. Not a logistics problem if you consider how many hours were claimed to be "accumulated" on "the engine", because now the five years are less than 4 !/2 and the pilots and aircraft have gatherd more engines and they are doing without beer, sex and nap time to get the "accumulated" hours in. Unless it's not real Luftfahrt time, which doesn't make sense with the last statement in this paragraph. Read on:} which has gone on in recent years to become the world’s most successful diesel/jet fuel aircraft engine. {Successful because? }

It is even more confusing (to me) in German.

Can someone explain this for me?





__________________
Plans #618, a tub, and everything I need to go to chapter 11 except: TIME! and a cold beer

"I'll do the "thinnin'" around here, Bobba Looey" ! - Quicksdraw McGraw
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-30-2007, 03:50 AM
Leon Leon is offline
slightly crazy
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Austria
Posts: 381
Default

oh boy .. no wonder their engines are crap .. they can neither count nor write correctly ...
__________________
-- future insane homebuilder --
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-30-2007, 01:16 PM
rv6ejguy's Avatar
rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 578
Default Re: Diamond DA-40TDI made forced landing to sea, in front of Helsinki

Clearly there have been some systems/ electronic failures in the Thielert installations which may have been avoided with better thought being put into failure modes. People should be aware that certification testing of aircraft engines does not involve as much testing as many people think. It is more of a paperwork trail as to the the parts and manufacturing processes.

The Jabiru is certified in OZ I believe but suffered many serious problems on customer engines with as little a 20-30 hours initially. There were several major redesigns on various parts over the last 4-5 years. They finally appear to have most issues worked out.

Certification does not ensure reliability- in fact nothing does as we have seen with the multiple crank issues on 40 year old Lycoming designs.

Best to be aware that when flying single engined aircraft, many things can fail and ruin your day. It sometimes matters little what is stamped on the side of the engine.

New engines will invariably have technical issues no matter who designed them and these need to be worked out as more hours are accumulated on them. The supporting systems are often the cause of engine shutdowns so these are just as important as core mechanical reliability. With the Thielert engines, almost all failures that I have read about have not had anything to do with the engine core.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-30-2007, 01:29 PM
argoldman argoldman is offline
Rich
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: chicago area
Posts: 481
Default Re: Diamond DA-40TDI made forced landing to sea, in front of Helsinki

Another view--

The engine may be perfect (this is not to imply that it is), however, installation or installation design errors can cause just as dead an engine as a piston through a cylinder wall.

Look not only to the engine manufacturer, but also to Diamond, the installer and the install designer.
__________________
CANARDLY CONTAIN MYSELF
Rich
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-30-2007, 06:24 PM
Clutch Cargo's Avatar
Clutch Cargo Clutch Cargo is offline
w/ Spinner and Paddlefoot
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cape Coral, FL
Posts: 602
Lightbulb Re: Diamond DA-40TDI made forced landing to sea, in front of Helsinki

Quote:
Originally Posted by argoldman View Post
Another view--

The engine may be perfect (this is not to imply that it is), however, installation or installation design errors can cause just as dead an engine as a piston through a cylinder wall.

Look not only to the engine manufacturer, but also to Diamond, the installer and the install designer.
That's a good view Rich,

That's what I thought too. The web site may contain -er - "fluff", but it's difficult to believe a diesel of any kind just dies. I have 3 diesels; a Japanese - Yanmar, a German - Mercedes (not the car, I pulled it to run my generator) and an American GM diesel V8, one ton Dually. They are all pretty much bullet proof! One thing though, any problems with fuel delivery and they stop and won't start for nothing until the problem is fixed. Every other problem makes them run bad or not start.

Likely the problem isn't in the mechanical parts of the engine. However, the claim by Thielert is, that they manufactured and tested the FADEC system that goes with the engine. How much of peripheral equipment did Diamond have to install that could stop fuel or air flow?
I would think that, for liability reasons alone, Diamond would have bought the engines as a "firewall forward" deal. Also, owing to the claim that there are many maintenance facilities prepared to service the engines, it would only make sense that Diamond insist on it.

Here is an excerpt from Diamond's News archive:
Dec. 12/02
Diamond DA42 TwinStar first flight

Diamond Aircraft owner and CEO, Christian Dries, flew the first Diamond DA42 TwinStar on December 9, 2002 from the Austrian factory at Wiener Neustadt. {that's in Austria, It means New Vienna, putting it together with our English, it could be "New Wiener". Would you buy an airplane made in "New Wiener"? Maybe that's why they moved production for American customers to the Canada. Of course there were those pesky bombs they found in the factory! (Bombs) and the "Mosquito Bomber" , a "Dust" (Mike S.) Airplane made of wood if ever there was one, it's a good read nonetheless. }This first flight of a twin diesel engine aircraft took place on schedule, only 55 weeks after the concept was first established. {That's less than a year after the TAE engine "gave rise" to the C 1.7, I have new "wiener" respect for the German aircraft engine sales force!} The TwinStar's Thielert Centurion 1.7 engines are certified to operate on both diesel and Jet A1 fuel......{blah, blah, blah}........

The DA42 TwinStar establishes a new standard in performance and value for the light piston twin market. It offers pilot workload reducing single-lever power controls for each engine,{FADEC by Thielert} low fuel consumption (10 gph @ 180 kts).

Nice airplane for 1/2 a million buck US. I wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers! I know, I know. Airplanes don't eat crackers and real airplanes stay in hangars, not beds. It's a figure of speech! I'm not sure where it came from. Probably from the day when someone shared a bed with someone and that person would eat crackers and the cracker crumbs would fall on the bed causing an uncomfortable night's sleep. That's when you had to determine the consequences of "kicking" the person out of bed (along with their crackers and crumbs, which can be, how can I say this, rather "intrusive"?). If you liked their company and ther appearance and had any other type of appreciation for whatever talent they may possess, you may think twice before the "kicking". Nowadays, the "kickee" can summon the authorities, claim assault and battery, initiate a restraining order and have you "kicked" out of your own house, assume control of your possesions and eat crackers in bed to their heart's content while watching Letterman, even if you're not married. So consider well the thought of kicking someone out of bed, or letting them there in the first place. If it is necessary to do the kicking because you are "obsessive compulsive" then consider the "scuffle on the floor" afterward. This may pre-empt the legal procedures and be quite enjoyable. This is for those in Europe or those learning about American Colloquialisms and is meant to be educational in nature. If you don't like it, I'll tell you what they tell me: If you don't lighten up, you're going to have a coronary mister!
__________________
Plans #618, a tub, and everything I need to go to chapter 11 except: TIME! and a cold beer

"I'll do the "thinnin'" around here, Bobba Looey" ! - Quicksdraw McGraw
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-30-2007, 10:13 PM
Lynn Erickson Lynn Erickson is offline
EVOLUTION EZE
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chino, CA
Posts: 535
Default Re: Diamond DA-40TDI made forced landing to sea, in front of Helsinki

Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post

New engines will invariably have technical issues no matter who designed them and these need to be worked out as more hours are accumulated on them. The supporting systems are often the cause of engine shutdowns so these are just as important as core mechanical reliability. With the Thielert engines, almost all failures that I have read about have not had anything to do with the engine core.
Then why are they not making 1500 hour TBO? what is failing in the core?
__________________
This is my opinion of these facts and only my opinion, your opinion may vary

Lynn Erickson A&P for lets say almost 30 years
Much better with a Dremel than a computer.
What if they gave me choice between a fast computer or a fast plane?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-31-2007, 03:46 AM
Leon Leon is offline
slightly crazy
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Austria
Posts: 381
Default Re: Diamond DA-40TDI made forced landing to sea, in front of Helsinki

the power losses our engines had were almost alway electrically induced. wiring harnesses that weren't completely waterproof being one example.

the engines we had to exchange, weren't exchanged due to no more go, but due to "wayyy to much oil". normal oil consumption is 0.1 liters per hour and engine. in the end we wound up with over ONE LITER (about a quart) of oil consumption per hour and engine.

that's when diamond sent us a new engine ...

they do NOT just stop, that is correct. it's hard so just stop a diesel engine, except when you deprive it of fuel.

no they "just" had stupid power losses, ECU unsafe lights flashing you in the face, and such things. the bad-ass design that caused the crash in germany in the twin is just plain stupid. on the other hand, the POH stated that it is noe allowed to do what the pilot did ...
__________________
-- future insane homebuilder --
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-31-2007, 04:47 AM
karoliina's Avatar
karoliina karoliina is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 417
Default Re: Diamond DA-40TDI made forced landing to sea, in front of Helsinki

Well, I am still believer of these engines getting better. In some cases, the problems with Thielert have occurred because of bad maintenance,
e.g. in one case a diesel Cessna crashed on takeoff because the maintenance company had failed to fasten the air intake pipe that goes to the turbo.
Better to always check it yourself after a maintenance before you fly (despite the certificate may prevent you of doing this because you are not qualified on paper)...
Actually, a type certificate, in contrary that many believe, is no guarantee of anything, in fact, it is the contrary. Once engine, plane or whatever, is certified,
it can't be changed/modified/made better/safer/more reliable and _you_ can't guarantee that it works, if someone else makes an error, you will face the consequences, but
can do nothing about it. This is contributing negatively to the safety, I think the certification system has gone too far already many years ago.
It may be reasonable rule for airliners, but for private aircrafts which are flown for leisure and fun it is completely unjustified. Like user fees, landing fees, everything,
private pilots have been a target of some sort for a very long time already and it seems like it is getting more and more unreasonable, year by year. Safety is overlooked, papers, fees, whatever are always more
important than life and death.

The plane itself is (I mean was) wonderful. Attached is a picture of Kate flying the plane that then crashed later on someone else's hands.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	kateohfdaturningleft.jpg
Views:	43
Size:	844.4 KB
ID:	3753  
__________________
http://www.karoliinasalminen.com/blog
DISCLAIMER: This message was written in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
--- Plans #000 at concepting stage ---
JAA-PPL(A) with NF & RT/E, UPL. WT9-Dynamic, TL-96 Star, Zephyr 2000, C152, C172 (& waiting the crashed diesel planes to get fixed )

Last edited by karoliina : 05-31-2007 at 05:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-31-2007, 11:18 AM
rv6ejguy's Avatar
rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 578
Default Re: Diamond DA-40TDI made forced landing to sea, in front of Helsinki

I'd be a bit worried about the basic premise of getting 135hp out of a 1.7L diesel and having it last 1500-2000 hours. This is the drawback of diesels in my view- weight, get a large engine to reduce stresses and it weighs too much. The 1.7s are already porky.

Few diesels are run under constant high load and rpm for their whole lives like in the Diamond. Concerns with upper ring land wear and exhaust valve life seem to be primary.

The mechanical failures tend to be soft, much like most common Lycoming problems where low compression leads to cylinder removal.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-31-2007, 12:13 PM
Leon Leon is offline
slightly crazy
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Austria
Posts: 381
Default Re: Diamond DA-40TDI made forced landing to sea, in front of Helsinki

i think rv6eguy expressed it point blank.

the 1.7 is a mighty small engine to produce 135 bhp flat rated.

the gear reduction ratio is 1.67 afaik, so with a prop rpm of 2300 the engine rattles along at 3840 RPM.

boy, the guys out there with the 1.9 liter diesels in the passats and so on, go and run your engine at 3840 rpm for an hour. it feels horrible, it sounds horrible.

at least the upped the engine to 2.0 now. id try and reduce the revs a little and change the gear ratio. 3000 engine rpm is the target i'd be aiming for, with 2300 prop rpms
__________________
-- future insane homebuilder --
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-31-2007, 12:39 PM
Clutch Cargo's Avatar
Clutch Cargo Clutch Cargo is offline
w/ Spinner and Paddlefoot
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cape Coral, FL
Posts: 602
Lightbulb Re: Diamond DA-40TDI made forced landing to sea, in front of Helsinki

I see nobody here has a sense of humor (that we know of ).

But no matter, you would think if there were mechanical problems they would have been detected, re-engineered and implemented in the 75000 hours (that's 8 hours per day, 365 days per year, for 25 years) that they "allegedly" ran "the" engine.
Most diesels find their best torque in the upper teens, lower 20's in RPMs, I'd put the PRSU in that range for about 2300 RPM prop spin.
It is easy to be critical when you didn't design and test something. But even with the problems Lyc has been having over the years, they still have a good reputation as far as reliability goes, coming up on 50 years! Production flaws hurt a lot.
I am sure with the crackerjack sales force at Thielert, they will have no trouble in damage control.
As far as humorous/informative/educational parts in my posts? I guess y'all ain't ready for the humor, so I'll stick to the other stuff .
__________________
Plans #618, a tub, and everything I need to go to chapter 11 except: TIME! and a cold beer

"I'll do the "thinnin'" around here, Bobba Looey" ! - Quicksdraw McGraw
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.