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View Poll Results: Which engine are you using, installing or planning on?
Continental 2 1.64%
Deltahawk 7 5.74%
Jet 2 1.64%
Lycoming 31 25.41%
Rotary 48 39.34%
Subaru 8 6.56%
Other Diesel 5 4.10%
Undecided 16 13.11%
Other Automotive 1 0.82%
LS1 V8... 405 HP 1 0.82%
Jabiru 5100 1 0.82%
Voters: 122. You may not vote on this poll

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  #16  
Old 12-14-2004, 07:02 PM
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my vote would be yes, should we start a new poll?Yes
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  #17  
Old 12-14-2004, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Is the XP-360 considered a Lycoming?
For the purposes of this survey, I'd say yes. We could do another survey for variants of each overall type if anyone's interested. e.g. 0360, IO360, 0320, XP360 etc. etc.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find these polls interesting. We should do more of them.
  #18  
Old 12-14-2004, 08:47 PM
Craigbeee Craigbeee is offline
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The webites for Eggenfeller and Crossflow Subaru conversions are very persuasive. IMHO the innodyn turbine will be a dog. Rotaries just don't fly (sorry, John). Deltahawk- too wierd (even for me ). Lyc or Cont-dinosaurs!
  #19  
Old 12-14-2004, 09:50 PM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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I liked the sound of the subaru until Dave Domier had a fan belt impact the timing chain cover, break the plastic and stop the engine. IIRC he got it down with some damage, and walked away. In general I think the subs a good engine, but I'm not as confident about its durability as I am the rotary.

Every dead stick rotary landing has been related to periferals - oil coolers, ignition, fuel etc. etc. Never the engine itself. It's just a matter of getting the periferals right and I believe we have a solid solution in the rotary. Add a turbo and you're moving away from the "unbreakable" reputation a little, but someones got to try it - might as well be me.

Quote:
Rotaries just don't fly
I think you're relaying a personal decision here, and that's fine. I'd be interested in your reasoning. However, they certainly do fly. I'd guess that Tracy's 1300+ hrs is probably the highest time automotive conversion flying. At the shady bend flyin you'll see Finn Lassen, Ed Andersen, Tracy and a couple of other long time wanklers. They're there every year.
  #20  
Old 12-14-2004, 10:31 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
I liked the sound of the subaru until Dave Domier had a fan belt impact the timing chain cover, break the plastic and stop the engine.
IIRC (and Curt Smith can verify this), Dave's accident was caused by the supercharger belt breaking, NOT the fan belt - see your definition of peripherals, below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
Every dead stick rotary landing has been related to periferals - oil coolers, ignition, fuel etc. etc. Never the engine itself. It's just a matter of getting the periferals right and I believe we have a solid solution in the rotary.
Same with the subaru, or most auto conversions. The supercharger is no more an integral part of the engine than your turbocharger is. I've never heard of a Subaru (or Chevy V6, or Ford V6, or <name your engine here>) throwing a rod, breaking a crank, or ingesting a valve in an airplane - I'm sure it's happened, but it's pretty damn rare. The base engine croaking is never going to be a large percentage of the engine failures - it's going to be peripherals, as you state, on ALL engines - rotary's or otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
I'd guess that Tracy's 1300+ hrs is probably the highest time automotive conversion flying.
Hardly. There are many auto conversions out there from the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's that have 1000's of hours on them. I've seen a few at OSH that advertised a few thousand hours, IIRC. There are hundreds of Subaru EA-81's flying on some of the smaller 2-seaters, such as Kitfox's, that have been flying since the early 90's. I'd be extremely surprised if Tracy's (very impressive) 1300 hours was anywhere near the highest time auto conversion flying.

Hell, there are Ford Model T engines that have been flying since the 1920's :-).
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  #21  
Old 12-14-2004, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
There are hundreds of Subaru EA-81's flying on some of the smaller 2-seaters, such as Kitfox's, that have been flying since the early 90's. I'd be extremely surprised if Tracy's (very impressive) 1300 hours was anywhere near the highest time auto conversion flying.
OK, thats true. What I was getting at was "high power" auto conversions that we can use on a Cozy. The 4 cyl subaru is a bit underpowered for us. I think Al Wick is upgrading to a V6. How many 200HP + auto engines have a long aviation history? Not many.

And yes, I consider a turbo or supercharger a periferal. Ideally a periferal is something that doesnt stop the engine and/or you can have a backup for it. The difference with Dave's failure was that whichever belt it was took out the timing and brought down the whole engine. Then again - loose one of your oil coolers = loose all the oil. No backup there either.
  #22  
Old 12-14-2004, 11:10 PM
Nathan Gifford Nathan Gifford is offline
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That's why I'm still in the undecided column.

BTW, the Innodyne, which I am told is a modified Solar turbine has been around for quite some time. Originally, it was destine to be used to be used in a small twin rotor Army helicopter. The engine was hand cranked until it started (imagine, hand cranking a turbine!!).

There have been some homebuilts using the old T62 (a KR and a few Rotorways). I'd be interested to know what the range was on the KR!

I think the drawback is whether the engine can be adapted to the type of flying VFR pilots are doing and building a adequate power train. Of course, that overlooks how much fuel this little turbine consumes.

I'm pretty sure the Innodyne won't be dog...pig maybe...but not a dog.
  #23  
Old 12-15-2004, 12:12 AM
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someone needs to handicap dust's votes above.
  #24  
Old 12-15-2004, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrike
someone needs to handicap dust's votes above.
Yeah, I refreshed the page and all of the sudden, Continental went from 1 to 100. I doubt that many people said to themselves "Hmmm, the Honda isn't on the list... but they were working with Continental. That's what I'll vote for."

Now we just need a groundswell of support for a recount effort!

-- Len

My candidate still wouldn't win in this race, poisoned or not (since it is an auto-conversion).
  #25  
Old 12-15-2004, 12:35 AM
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DUST !!!!

What ever came of that Rolling on the ground laughing your _SS Off smily face?

I'm still chuckling
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You are buildin a dam airplane from scratch and you do not know what you are doin!!!! - Dust

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www.Cozy1200.com - just pics and misc ramblings
  #26  
Old 12-15-2004, 12:50 AM
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aside from Dusties' Ukranian voting, I am floored at the vast % of people going with the rotary. I knew it was popular - just not that popular - with all the growing pains and all.

Really makes me take a step back and think about it. I was all but convinced that the lyc-continental would be a safe bet.

So many people cant be that far off base at the same time - even if it does sound like a leaf blower.

Still thinking about the 10" cherry bomb glass packs or a motorcycle style megaphone to change the sound.
  #27  
Old 12-15-2004, 05:19 AM
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David Swain David Swain is offline
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While sitting around one nightshift, a race car engine builder friend showed me this GM crate engine. Out of the Saturn car, 4 cylinder, 205 hp, supercharger, apperars to be aluminum, and reasonably priced. What do you'll think?

http://www.gmpartsdepot.com/category...Category_ID=2&

I called them for more information and they replied that what was posted was all the info they had. Waiting to see if more info comes out soon. This engine would need a PSRU of some sort among other stuff to work for us flyers.
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  #28  
Old 12-15-2004, 07:07 AM
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I contacted Theresa Lapore down here in West Palm and got her to fix the votes.
Quote:
So many people cant be that far off base
You're only seeing the tip of the iceberg. While the percentage here is probably high on the rotary, our membership is only about one fifth of the plans sold, and thats not counting LongEzs, Aerocanards, SQs and Velocities etc. I'd bet that there are 50 + canards's building or planning rotaries.

Quote:
even if it does sound like a leaf blower.
It really doesnt. Locals decribe mine as "the race car in the sky". Wait till you hear it live.

Quote:
Saturn car, 4 cylinder, 205 hp, supercharger, appears to be aluminum, and reasonably priced. What do you'll think?
I wouldnt recommend starting from scratch with any new engine type, David. Unless you're VERY knowledgable in this stuff just following others is a serious learning curve. The more there are to follow and the more failure modes already identified, the easier your job will be. Trust me on this

Let me add another thought about rotary installations. As I said, the more people there are to follow (and ask questions of) the easier the job. But, and it's a big but, you just can't ask every question by email, and there's is no "how-to" guide other than Tracy's book which is somewhat out of date and doesn't cover fuel injection or turbos. Those who see my chronical as a deterrant or an idea of what you're in for are, to some extent, taking it the wrong way. My web site is intended as a map for the minefield. It's packed full with all the mistakes to avoid - and I've made some doosies.

Once this engine is running smoothly and consistently (and that WILL happen) someone, possibly me, needs to invert my web site into a "how to" guide. Just dump all the errors, take pictures, draw diagrams and cover only the end results that worked. For example, all the discussion about calibration could be reduced to a couple of sentences - "Don't trust the factory calibration or the sensors. Mount the sensors on a well grounded al plate and submerse in boiling water. Calibrate to 212. Now change the water for oil and heat to 240F. Compare with a wax thermometer or infra-red gun and adjust as needed.". Sounds obvious, but there are a lot of not-so-obvious items that people following can now get right first time if they take the trouble to pick their way through my errors.

Whether it's a subaru, a V8 or whatever, if its not a tested firewall forward package you'll have a lot of issues to solve - and even then there are some. My web site is a guide to what you can expect if you're starting from scratch.

Last edited by John Slade : 12-15-2004 at 08:03 AM.
  #29  
Old 12-15-2004, 09:57 AM
Flying_Dutchman Flying_Dutchman is offline
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My vote goes to the Lycoming. Actually I have two reasons:
- I am trying to minimise the risk by changing as little as possible from the plans. Building an airplane (I am just starting) is enough of a project in itself and I do not want to add the potential problems with another engine. John, I made your page the home page of my browser and I follow each of your adventures with enourmous admiration!
- The second reason is legal. In France I can register the plane as IFR ONLY if I use a certified engine. I intend at least to equip it IFR, but I am undecided if I will go to the trouble of registering it as such. I just want to keep my options open.
  #30  
Old 12-15-2004, 10:01 AM
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Hey, I'm 1/2 Sicilian and 1/2 Croatian, and 100% nuts - what happened to the voting, where did all of my support go to?

Yes, but the voting on this forum is not the norm in the experimental world, we have many here that have gathered, hoping john is successful, many don't come here because of the pro rotary sentiment.

Build the plane and when you are ready for an engine, pick it, don't worry about it, there will be something to pick from.
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Enjoy the build,njut av byggandet, godere il costruire, nyd bygningen, geniesse den Bau, apolafse tin kataskevi, disfrute la construcción, curta a construção, Pidä hauskaa rakentamisen parissa, bouw lekker,uživaj grade?inaslajdaites postroikoi, geniet die bou
dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
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