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  #1  
Old 01-30-2006, 02:48 PM
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Default Blows my mind

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A flight instructor and his student ran into trouble, Friday morning and crashed at Oakland County Airport while trying to land. Both were killed in the accident.

The instructor, 51-year-old Gene Hammond, and 34-year-old student, Thomas Christopher Bailey, were both certified to fly a variety of aircraft. Bailey was a commercial pilot who already had an instrument rating and was anxious to learn to fly a "Tail Dragger," which is a plane with the wheel in the rear.

The two talked with the tower, but never gave any indication of trouble and were given permission to land. The single engine Bellanca Citabria went down at 9:26 a.m.

David VanderVeen, from the Oakland County International Airport, said, "It was apparently making a very tight turn to land to the East, which in aviation terms is runway 9 left, it appears, and I’m using the word appears because this all has to be verified by the FAA in this investigation, it landed short of the runway. There was no fire, but there were two fatalities."

Residents nearby said it sounded like the end gate on a gravel hauler slamming close.

Both Hammond and Bailey were from Pontiac. The plane was owned by Sutton Aviation out of Lapeer.
This is the unusual attitude / acrobatic flight instructor i have spoken of

how can this happen???
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  #2  
Old 01-30-2006, 04:00 PM
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Doesn't matter how many hours some people have. They are just not thinking. How many CFIT accidents are there with 30,000 hours collectively between both seats? A few months ago up here, two CFIs in the same Comanche landed gear up, luckily not fatal. Any checks being done in that cockpit? Complacency, innattention and overconfidence cause many accidents.

Lots of experienced RVers do the high bank turn at low altitude too slow and die. Lots to the steep climb after takeoff to impress friends and stall/ spin. There are no excuses for either of these manouvers. Showing off often kills you.

One idiot up here in a turbine did an apparently unauthorized low pass at a controlled airport and missed a hovering helo by a couple of hundred feet at 300 knots! Fate will catch up with this fellow eventually. Hopefully he doesn't take anyone else with him.

Aviation is potentially dangerous enough without trying these stupid pet tricks.
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Old 01-30-2006, 04:15 PM
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Another often owner-operated job -- commercial pilot -- comes in third on the list of the country's most dangerous jobs, with 70 fatalities per 100,000 workers.

Most pilot fatalities come from general aviation; bush pilots, air-taxi pilots, and crop-dusters die at a far higher rate than airline pilots. Again, Alaskan workers skew the profession's data; recent National Institute for Occupational Health and Safety (NIOSH) stats indicate that they have a fatality rate four times higher than those in the lower 48.

"Alaskan pilots have a one in eight chance of dying during a 30-year career," says George Conway of NIOSH. "That's huge."

Conway reports that the most common scenario in fatal plane crashes in Alaska is, "controlled flight into terrain." A pilot starts out in good weather then runs into clouds, loses visibility, and flies into a mountainside.
I wanna be a pilot
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  #4  
Old 01-30-2006, 04:16 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust
Thow can this happen???
From:

http://theoaklandpress.com/stories/0...06012801.shtml

This sounds like a classic low altitude stall/spin due to high bank angles/low speeds on the base to final turn. A student in a non-familiar plane wrt V speeds. By the time the plane stalls, it's too late for the instructor to do anything about it.

Of course, this is all speculation from the eyewitness testimony of a non-pilot, and we know how unreliable eyewitness testimony is..... But the picture looks as though the nose and left wing hit first - that would make sense in a left turn stall/spin.
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Old 01-30-2006, 11:00 PM
Wayne Hicks Wayne Hicks is offline
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We had an Airline Pilot's Club at PVG. They had to dissolve the club because these active airline pilots BROKE THE NOSE GEARS on the three aircraft the club owned. They either flared too high and didn't flare at all. Just goes to show that all planes have their own way they like to be flown. "Out of practice" or "not familiar with type" is a recipe for disaster.
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  #6  
Old 01-30-2006, 11:38 PM
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Dust,

Was this the guy that you or Dave was going to use for a test pilot? My memory is fuzzy here, but I remember Dave saying something about a naval aviator.

-- Len
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  #7  
Old 01-31-2006, 09:41 AM
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No, this is the guy i was going to get upside down training from. I met him last fall - he was all smiles as he had just, that day, taken delivery of the fully acrobatic catribria and had just flown it for the first time.

Parallel runways - he probable felt that he was too close to 9R and steepened the turn. On parrel runways i have a tendency to do a dogleg final . I would rather straighten it out than worry about the other runway. Pontiac has 300,000 landings a year, if memory serves me right.

What would have happened in a cozy or canard? Would the stall resistance saved his bacon?
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  #8  
Old 01-31-2006, 10:50 AM
Wayne Hicks Wayne Hicks is offline
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Just my opinion (yet once again):

I point the finger at our current training programs that teach students to fly a square pattern with 4 distinct legs. The problem is, they also want the student to fly a tight pattern to remain close in case of engine failure. Thus, what the student tries to do is turn the base leg, straighten wings level, then turn base to final. That's three maneuvers. This in my opinion causes the student to overfly the base leg and to rush the turn onto final. Hence, the student overbanks and runs the risk of accelerated stalls.

The rationale for wings-level on the base leg is collision avoidance -- so that you can scan for traffic and ensure no one is flying a straight-in final.

During a BFR, a very senior instructor gave me the very sound advice of ditching the squared-off stuff and just flying the base leg as a gradual, continuous turn from downwind to final. This eliminates two maneuvers -- turn to wings level, turn to final. The one continuous turn allows you more time to judge progress and better conpensate the rate of turn so that you arrive on the extended centerline for final. This decreases the chance of overflying the centerline. The gradual turn decreases the risk of overbanking and accelerated stalls. Because your wings are banked, you increase the chances of being seen by others in the pattern and by those on the ground waiting to take off.

Now, you still must verify collision avoidance for those morons who feel they have a right to fly straight-in finals with someone already in the pattern. I do this by ensuring my turn is gradual, which ensures a shallow bank angle, which ensures my ability to see out the starboard windows. I also start a very proactive scan while on the downwind leg for moronic straight-in finals.

My flight instructor was very conservative and never demonstrated an accelerated stall to me. I think this is a mistake. I later practiced them while getting some spin training prior to my instrument rating. Once you see an accelerated stall in a conventional aircraft, you'll gain a HEALTHY respect for it and you will NEVER overbank the aircraft ever again out of FEAR.
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  #9  
Old 01-31-2006, 11:32 AM
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I agree with Wayne as far as "curving" the base & final, except that I like to roll to wings level once or twice to get a good look for the straight in people.

Quote:
never demonstrated an accelerated stall to me
Aghhh! A student needs to know what a plane feels like in all recoverable attitudes. Spins, rolls, loops, stalls, tail slides etc. etc. This way, when it happens accidentally, he/she won't be frozen in fear or disoriented, and will have a good idea what to do to get out of it. Student pilots - I suggest that you INSIST on heavy emphasis on unusual attitudes. This is where you wear an IFR hood down all the way and the instructor throws you all over the sky till you feel ill, then lifts the hood so you can see the panel, gives you the controls and tells you to recover from whatever he's left you in. Do this over and over in all sorts of weird attitudes until it's instinct. It may save you're butt one day.
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Old 01-31-2006, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Slade
Do this over and over in all sorts of weird attitudes until it's instinct. It may save you're butt one day.
As the CFI was a fully acrobatic instructor AND in a fully acrobatic plane - i'm sure he cold perform these manuevers in his sleep. Made no diference.

Back to the thought - would a canard have NOT done this?
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
As the CFI was a fully acrobatic instructor AND in a fully acrobatic plane - i'm sure he cold perform these manuevers in his sleep. Made no diference.
True. I was just taking the opportunity to point out the value of UPs to those members who are learning to fly while building.

Quote:
Back to the thought - would a canard have NOT done this?
We don't know what happened, or what the pilot/s did or did not do. If you're asking "can you crash a Cozy by getting way too slow in a high bank turn near the ground", I'm sure the answer is yes.
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:44 PM
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but i thought it would porpoise and not allow a stall.
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  #13  
Old 01-31-2006, 12:50 PM
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Dust,

I'm a newbie hear on your forum but thought I might have some free advice for you. Everybody knows what free advice is worth but trust me!!

Find a guy named John Morrisey near Kansas City MO. If i remember correctly his business is listed as Great Plains something. He was a EXCELLENT aerboatic instructor. He has been involved in competition aerobatics for over 20 years. Spent time in Russia coaching the Russian Aerobatic team, was lead for the Holiday Inn Aerobatic team, 20 year fighter pilot etc. He used to be listed in the IAC aerobatic CFIs. He taught in a Pitts S2A for over 20 years also. If you are already of a member of the
EAA just add on a IAC membership and they will provide a list of instructors.

The Pitts is a great plane to try out spins and the edges of controlled flight. I had a VERY interesting experince getting my tailwheel checkout and wanted the best I could find to start me out in aerobatics. I wasn't disappointed.

good luck its a blast!
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:59 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust
Back to the thought - would a canard have NOT done this?
When talking about the "stall resistant" behavior of our canard aircraft, this type of accident (assuming that the actual cause was a low altitude stall/spin, and not something else) is exactly what the design is intended to prevent.

Having done 60 degree banked stalls in my plane at all CG/weight positions, I can safely say that in MY plane, at least, this type of accident is ALMOST impossible. If I tried VERY hard, with some violent dynamic control inputs, I MIGHT be able to get the plane to depart in this manner, but I doubt it.

IF you were at low altitudes, banked too hard, and began to have a canard bob, you would NOT snap over or start spinning, although the nose would start to drop. You would still have full aileron authority, could level the wings and either continue the landing or add power and go around. You might lose 20 - 50 feet.

Since I'm able to CLIMB, while stalled in a 45 degree banked turn (and possibly in a 60 degree bank, although I doubt it), I think that you would be very hard pressed to force this type of accident in a canard aircraft. However, there are an infinite number of other stupid things that pilots do, and the canard accident rate is not substantially different from the accident rate of GA aircraft as a whole, from what I've read, so this particular accident type (stall/spin at low altitude), while often fatal, is not a large %age of the total accident rate.
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:59 PM
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Dust

just to add to the bank angle close to the ground topic

at a bank angle of 90 degrees in cordinated flight (not knife edge) the aircraft will accelarate towards the ground the same as a falling rock. The steeper the bank the more G is required and slower speeds means less g available. However at 90 degrees you can pull 20 g's and still fall like a rock.



I to like the 180 final turn from the perch, Much easier to judge everything and to visualize if you are going to be overshooting final or undershooting final.

Tailwinds and blue skies to those two men.
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