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  #1  
Old 07-01-2005, 08:54 AM
Wayne Hicks Wayne Hicks is offline
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Default Why are Vans RVs so popular?

Why are the RVs so popular? Here's why. At least 10 customer-built RV-10s have already done their first flights! The RV-10 kit has only been available for about 2 years! About 450 are under construction. (I got this from the EAA hotline email.)

10 airplanes in two years' build! That's a remarkable pace. I only know of three Cozy IVs that made first flight in about 2 years -- Mark Beduhm, Chris Schida, and David Higgins.

I'm not trying to start a religious argument or debates about kit verus scratch building. It's just remarkable to see any aircraft type being built so quickly.
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  #2  
Old 07-01-2005, 09:55 AM
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Yea, and they're fast, affordable, and can do some acro. I happen to think they're a little boring, but I can see the attraction. In fact, a neighbor of mine is building the 10, and he was telling me how quickly it was going, and how easy it was with the match-drilled holes, and that 'if the cleco doesn't go in easily, you've messed something up, because the alignment is always spot-on". I bought the QB Velocity, and it's a good kit, but even so things need encouragement from time to time to line up the way you want.

Brett
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  #3  
Old 07-01-2005, 10:03 AM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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Don't forget their other advantge - they can land almost anywhere....

roads, farmer's fields, helicopter pads, Shady Bend to name but a few

Last edited by John Slade : 07-01-2005 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 07-01-2005, 10:58 AM
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They kinda look like a Cherokee, you know, boring.

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  #5  
Old 07-01-2005, 11:13 AM
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As I have descibed my reasoning to my friends... my heart want a Cozy, my mind an RV10 and my Wallet an RV7
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  #6  
Old 07-01-2005, 12:32 PM
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Well one reason is that THEY LOOK LIKE A PLANE. many people are afraid of flying and when you heap onto that a totally foreign design - it is just too much. why do you think the boeing "sonic cruiser" will not go into production - it just did not look like what everyone has always flown in.

i figure rv6eguy will fill us in on how easy, fast to build, etc, but i think a basic reason is looks and familiarity
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  #7  
Old 07-01-2005, 12:32 PM
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I would be willing to bet that those ten completions are by people who have previously built an RV. Last weekend, I went to the RV & Canard fly in that the greater boston chapter of the EAA had. There were a few Vari's and a few Longs and Marc's Cozy IV, but a lot more RV's.

Anyway, another perspective builder who is deciding between the RV, an Aerocanard, and a Lancair had persuaded me to attend the RV riveting workshop. At the workshop, the guy who was giving the presentation started to pull out tools from several tool boxes, describing what they were and where you needed them for building an RV. Forty five minutes later, he had filled the table, and was still pulling out new tools. I have a lot of tools, and I work in a metal shop that has almost anything, and I counted only three tools that I had ever used on his table!

Eventually, he ran out of time for his presentation, and afterwards, he showed us how to rivet. I realize that there is pressure when you are showing other people how to do things, but it took him nearly fifteen minutes to prepare and install one rivet. He still screwed the rivet up.

Where I'm going with this, is that these completions are probably serial RV builders who have the tools and experience to put these planes together in minimal time. By the same token, serial composite canard builders could probably build a Cozy in less time.

-- Len
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Old 07-01-2005, 12:37 PM
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As a builder of an RV6A and now working on an RV10, my observations are:

Yes they are really common, therefore kinda boring to look at. They look OK but don't have the cool, smooth look of most canards. I put in a different engine to make mine a bit more interesting.

They are a bit more expensive to build but way quicker than composites. I expect my QB RV10 to be done in around 1500 hours. Only took 18 hours to build the fin for instance. For what you pay, compared to anything 10-20 years old and factory, these planes are an outstanding deal.

Advantages:

No sanding dust to speak of, just need hearing protection for riveting.

They have far superior short field performance to most canards. I can easily be off the ground in 400 feet at light weight and 350 if I want to. The climb angle to clear obstacles is very impressive.

They have beautiful control harmony and have no bad vices.

They haul a good load and are roomy. The -10 has a useful load of 1180 lbs. That's four 180 lb. people, full fuel and 100 lbs. of baggage.

They are reasonably fast, 165-180 knots TAS cruise in most cases.

Most of the models are aerobatic if you are so inclined.

After looking at many projects, no other kit comes as complete and with such good manuals as the RV10 plus Van's is an excellent company to deal with- no BS and they have been around long enough to be confident you won't get screwed.

Nose gear is down and locked at all times.

C of G and loading of little concern with any reasonable load. No ballast to carry.

You can paint 'em any color you want so at least they are not all white!

Over 4000 RVs flying. Probably means they have a good formula which appeals to many.

Great forum support- Just like with canards.

Good safety record considering how many are flying and the sport capabilities. Most accidents are due to stupid pilot tricks or lack of training.

If you get a prop strike on a tri-gear model, you've just done a VERY bad landing or takeoff!

If something starts smoking, you smell it right away.

Sliding canopy on most allows you to hang your arm over the side like the fighter pilot you always wanted to be, on the ground anyway.

Glass cowling and wingtips give you just enough glass and sanding experience to thank your favourite deity that you chose a metal aircraft.

Disadvantages:

Their metal finish waves back at you.

Collects more bugs.

Not as cool looking.

They will still stall if you are really stupid.

The short winged ones glide like a Space Shuttle.

Common

More expensive to build.


Last edited by rv6ejguy : 07-02-2005 at 02:02 PM. Reason: typo
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  #9  
Old 07-01-2005, 12:50 PM
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mmmmmmmmm - twin turbos - ima tinkin u b havin the fastest TAS rv10 for a while
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dust

maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
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  #10  
Old 07-01-2005, 12:54 PM
Nathan Gifford Nathan Gifford is offline
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Don't fret about RVs. Vans has done an excellent job in marketing their aircraft and really taking a lot of the work of working with metal out. If Vans sold 450 kits in the last two years that's a great success story and makes you wonder how many other kits they also sold.

To me its rather a shame that EAA meetings I have attended are more of an RV users' group meeting, but the good news is that they are keeping some of the chapters active. The public loves to look at their planes, but they will never mistake an RV for spaceship will they?

I have got one guy here who's trying to decide between an RV and a Velocity XL5. I think the Velo because of the coolness factor, but he believes that the RV10 might be little cheaper to build. It might be interesting to see how he would get an RV10 out of his uptown backyard!

Still, I believe the Cozy's speed per dollar, operational and construction costs will be lower than the RV10's. Besides, its a heck of a lot easier to repair a Cozy's ding than an RV's.
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  #11  
Old 07-01-2005, 12:54 PM
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RV6EJGUY, Very good read

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  #12  
Old 07-01-2005, 12:57 PM
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Len has some valid points. You do need about $1000-$1500 worth of special tools. The riveting part was totally scary to me before I started the -6A even through I was a metal fabricator and machinist in my previous life. Turned out that it was really easy to learn and a non-issue.

Riveting goes very quickly, it's the skin prep work that takes most of the time, drilling, deburring and dimpling for the flush rivets takes 4 times longer than driving the rivets. Less than 2 hours of total riveting time on my fin for instance.

I've only had to drill out 5-6 rivets on my 2 projects so far.

Most RV10 builders are repeat offenders. You learn a LOT on the first one. The RV10 structure is more complex than the earlier designs, but the kits are so much better than the olds ones that QBs will take around 1500 hours to do and normal kits around 2000-2500 hours. I think the same applied to glass aircraft, your second one will go a lot faster than the first. The big time saver is way less finish work before painting. I know one glass guy that spent over 1200 hours doing the final sanding alone. He was very picky and it was absolutely smooth and gorgeous when it was done but I could never put myself through that.

The dust, the dust. the horror of it all. I did cut by finger twice on the -6 though.

Last edited by rv6ejguy : 07-02-2005 at 02:06 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 07-01-2005, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust
mmmmmmmmm - twin turbos - ima tinkin u b havin the fastest TAS rv10 for a while
We hope to see 190-200 knots TAS cruise at 18,000 feet with the twin turbo Sube RV10. Well It's Canada Day today and I'm off to start deburring my elevators (those are the funny things mounted aft where the engine should be). Deburring sucks by the way.


Last edited by rv6ejguy : 07-01-2005 at 01:38 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #14  
Old 10-18-2006, 05:07 PM
rutanfan rutanfan is offline
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I know this is not a canard, but I'm sure some might be interested. My friend Scott just completed his first flight in his beautiful new RV-10. It only took him about 2-1/2 years to build.

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ad.php?t=11795
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  #15  
Old 10-19-2006, 11:36 AM
Fearless Fearless is offline
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There were several reasons why I switched over to an RV even though I bought the Cozy plans as well as the other modification plans (forward canopy, hidden belhorns). A few of the reasons were: people that I would met would be stalled out on their Cozy builds taking years to build, last winter Brock decided to quit making parts, epoxy and foam prices keep spiralling out of control. When I bought my plans I was flying out of a 5000 ft paved runway. Now when I fly it is out of a 2000 ft grass strip.

The building of a canard is a cottage industry with many people depending on a few sources. When Brock closed people where scrambling to find other sources for parts. Chrissi and Randi came to the rescue as well as Jack and some others. If something happens to these folks the parts availability may dry up just like when Brock closed. I checked ACS site yesterday and didn't see the engine mount listed for the Cozy even though they are suppose to supply the parts needed to complete a plane from the plans they sell. I know CG Products is making the mounts but if something happens to them who is going to pick up the ball then?

One attraction with Vans and the RV is that you got a good company backing up the product that should be around for years. The company still should keep going if something happens to an owner or an employee. If you need something it usually is available and not necessarily outragious on the price. So far any replacement part that I have ordered they had in stock. The planes also offer performance close to a canard. What I don't like about Vans is the handling charges you pay for doing business with them. Also the shipping charges from Oregon can be out of sight. I was charged $48 dollars to have a rudder skin shipped by UPS ground just because of the box size they shipped it in. I buy stuff from ACS and Wicks when I can now but they aren't saints either.

The tools for Building an RV are expensive to obtain. I probably have around $2000 in tools already and will still be buying them after I start flying my plane. I had already bought most of the tools for building a Cozy that the CozyGirrrls had recommended which would be around $500 - $600. I might actually get to use the PermaGrit tools on the fiberglass pieces on my 9a. The learning curve with working with the aircraft sheetmetal tools is definitely there but it would have been the same for me with working with fiberglass and epoxy. Plus I really don't have to worry about temperature when working on the RV in my garage. I do need to be concerned about moist and corrosion.

The support groups for both the canard community and RV community are great. Marc does an outstanding job for the Cozy. I'm still on the list as well as a member of CSA and will remain to do so. There are three of us building a RV-9A within 60 miles of one another. One is getting ready to fly, one is working on the fuselage and I'm working on the empennage which I should have done in a week of two. I should be well on my way on the fuselage this time next year. There are probably over 1000 RV9 projects started and thats only one plane type of what Van's sells. They advertise over 4000 RV's flying now.

The main difference I see between building a RV and a plans built canard plans is that on a RV more time is spent getting to what looks like a plane vs the canard that when you have something that resembles a plane you have a lot of time left in getting it finished out.

Now I'm not trying to persuade anyone from not building a Cozy or any other canard. I would like to have one also. I'm going to keep my plans and my reserved N number that I would have used on my Cozy. When I'm done on the RV and flying I hope to return to a Cozy build. When I go to RR the wow factor with the canards really hits hard. But the reality is that I'll be more successful on getting into the air sooner with an RV. I just won't be able to pack it like a station wagon like Marc Z does.

Mike
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