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  #16  
Old 10-19-2006, 12:19 PM
deuskid deuskid is offline
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Mike

The RV and a cannard have over-lapping but different missions.

Factor in the differences in build methodology and differing needs and different people will come up with different alternatives to their particular set of circumstances.

Both the RV and the Cozy IV [to represent the cannard family] are great aircraft. There are others out there as well. There is a thread in VAF right now titled 'Nuts to go Certified'. I believe experimental is the only reasonable way for the majority of us to be able to fly:

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...8978#post78978

As long as it is well researched and considered each will choose the best aircraft to fit their mission/pocket book/time schedule/tastes/ abilities.

Cozy IV and RVs are 2 of the best options imho...

ymmv

John
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  #17  
Old 10-19-2006, 12:53 PM
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David Clifford David Clifford is offline
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Check out the room here: http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-10spe.htm

The performance here: http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-10per.htm

The low price here: http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/kitprice.htm

In three more weeks,,,mine will be here!!
WHAAAAHOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
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  #18  
Old 10-19-2006, 01:40 PM
Wayne Hicks Wayne Hicks is offline
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The "low price" link must not be working...
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  #19  
Old 10-19-2006, 02:58 PM
rutanfan rutanfan is offline
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The great thing about the plans built canards (Long or Cozy) is that you may start building with a small initial investment (plans, chapter material, fiberglass, foam, & epoxy.) For example, the chapter 4 materials are just over $500. For less than $1k you may start building at your leisure. Chapter 5 you need another $350, then $250 for chapter 6, etc. The quick build RV-10 is $46K plus interest.

The next great thing is the flexibility with the plans built system. Just look at all the canopy systems people are making, or retracts, or you could put a window in the strake, or change the shape/size of the nose door, or install Lynn E’s kick ass venturi exhaust system, etc, etc.

The Cozy certainly takes considerably more time to build than the RV-10, but you could probably pay Denise Oelmann to build your entire airframe for less than a quick build RV-10. (just a hunch. I’ve no idea how much Oelmann would actually charge, but I think he quoted me about $8,800 for glassed wings ready to bolt on.)

That said, the RV-10 really is a thing of beauty. Watching how quickly it went together, and how much utility it has, if I ever build a 4-seater, I’ll definitely build an RV-10.
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  #20  
Old 10-19-2006, 07:32 PM
deuskid deuskid is offline
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Originally Posted by rutanfan View Post
The great thing about the plans built canards (Long or Cozy) is that you may start building with a small initial investment (plans, chapter material, fiberglass, foam, & epoxy.) For example, the chapter 4 materials are just over $500. For less than $1k you may start building at your leisure. Chapter 5 you need another $350, then $250 for chapter 6, etc. The quick build RV-10 is $46K plus interest.

The next great thing is the flexibility with the plans built system. Just look at all the canopy systems people are making, or retracts, or you could put a window in the strake, or change the shape/size of the nose door, or install Lynn E’s kick ass venturi exhaust system, etc, etc.

The Cozy certainly takes considerably more time to build than the RV-10, but you could probably pay Denise Oelmann to build your entire airframe for less than a quick build RV-10. (just a hunch. I’ve no idea how much Oelmann would actually charge, but I think he quoted me about $8,800 for glassed wings ready to bolt on.)

That said, the RV-10 really is a thing of beauty. Watching how quickly it went together, and how much utility it has, if I ever build a 4-seater, I’ll definitely build an RV-10.
I believe the 'cheap to begin' is false economy. It is the the full amount to get to 10,000 feet that matters. If you don't have a few grand to start then save before beginning. I doubt there is a 10% price difference in a Cozy IV and a RV-10 with identical engines and instruments when both are flying.

There is a difference is speed, fuel consumption, ability to land on grass or short strips and other significant criteria [purposefully balanced to list superior characteristics of each]. I propose that a 10% price difference AND a more than 10% in build time difference are both irrelevent in the decision process. Flexibility isn't an issue either [there are RVs with about anything your can conceive flying as there are canards].

Build what fits your mission and your personalty.

INCREMENTAL $$$$, time or model flexibility don't come into play when meeting real needs.

just my opinion

ymmv

John
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  #21  
Old 10-19-2006, 07:55 PM
rutanfan rutanfan is offline
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Originally Posted by deuskid View Post
I believe the 'cheap to begin' is false economy. It is the the full amount to get to 10,000 feet that matters.
Not if you never have the funds or credit or ability to pay for the initial kit investment. A 10 year loan on the $46,000 RV-10 quick build at 8.5% interest would result in an additional $22.5K in cost. It would also strap you down with a mandatory $570/month payment. Plans building may delay the major costs until the end of the project such as engine and avionics. Most people would be unable to incure the above costs and/or liability of a $570/month payment.

I always wanted a Berkut, but I was never able to start building because I never had the sufficient funds to purchase the A-kit or even assume the liability of the loan. They folded the year I graduated college.

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Originally Posted by deuskid View Post
There is a difference is speed, fuel consumption, ability to land on grass or short strips and other significant criteria [purposefully balanced to list superior characteristics of each
That is why I would build an RV-10 if I choose to build a 4-seater. Plus the go together a lot quicker, and if actually flying as soon as possible is a goal, then this should be factored in.

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Flexibility isn't an issue either [there are RVs with about anything your can conceive flying as there are canards].
I respectfully disagree that kit-built RV’s are anywhere near as flexible as a composite plans built. When I start seeing RV builders slap on retracts at will, or extending the tail section, or filleting the wings, etc then I’ll believe it.

Warm regards.

Ray.
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  #22  
Old 10-19-2006, 08:02 PM
Dave Dave is offline
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This is a great thread, thanks for pulling back out of the abyss!! I never even considered the RV, but it looks like a very good choice. The problem is, I want to start building NOW because I feel NOW is the right time. I also do not want any more loans, so Cozy IV, here I come....

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  #23  
Old 10-19-2006, 08:38 PM
deuskid deuskid is offline
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Originally Posted by rutanfan View Post
Not if you never have the funds or credit or ability to pay for the initial kit investment. A 10 year loan on the $46,000 RV-10 quick build at 8.5% interest would result in an additional $22.5K in cost.
again, poor assumption. You only need to begin with the emmpenage kit. then either wings or fuse then the other then finish kit then engine then instruments... all can be done one piece at a time. you don't need to plunk down $46k all at once... only a few thousand every so often [you decide how frequently].

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Originally Posted by rutanfan View Post
It would also strap you down with a mandatory $570/month payment. Plans building may delay the major costs until the end of the project such as engine and avionics. Most people would be unable to incure the above costs and/or liability of a $570/month payment.
you're 'payment' would be whatever you put away each month until you had the next piece of the kit paid for [and needed]. Don't need to finance nut'n. In the end cash outflow will be the same. RV fewer larger purchases, cannard many more smaller purchaes.. net cash flow ~ the same.


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Originally Posted by rutanfan View Post
I respectfully disagree that kit-built RV’s are anywhere near as flexible as a composite plans built. When I start seeing RV builders slap on retracts at will, or extending the tail section, or filleting the wings, etc then I’ll believe it.

Warm regards.

Ray.
you only need to modify that which isn't already fully acceptable. there aren't many retracts on RVs but then they aren't needed. Don't need to extend the tail or futz with the wings either. Purty much about right as the kit comes...

If you want to design your own plane then no, the RV won't fit your needs. If you want composite or a cannard ... nope...

If you want to use grass strips or t/o or land in 1/2 the distance of a canard or be done quicker or have a more stable IFR platform [not to say the Cozy IV isn't just isn't 'as'] then the RV is a better candidate.

neither is wrong ... just different...

again, the $$$ are a non issue. If you don't have the $3,310 for the empennage kit to begin then save $550 a month for 6 months. I bet 2 ppl starting at the same time... at the end of 9 months both the RV and Cozy IV builder will have approximately the same % of their aircraft completed. I'd wager that that the RV builder will be flying sooner than the Cozy IV builder too.

as respectfully,

John
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  #24  
Old 10-19-2006, 10:26 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
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Originally Posted by deuskid View Post
..... I doubt there is a 10% price difference in a Cozy IV and a RV-10 with identical engines and instruments when both are flying......
Doubt what you like, but COZY's get in the air for costs between $40K and $75K for the most part - even with a CS prop, you might add $10K to that range.

You won't find a RV-10 that's been built for less than $70K, if that's even possible, given the $36K kit cost (NOT quickbuild). Most are between $100K and $150K, from the builders I've spoken to at OSH. The cost ratio is closer to 2:1 than 1.1:1.

Great plane, the RV-10, but don't kid yourself into thinking that you can build it for the price of a COZY MKIV.
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  #25  
Old 10-19-2006, 11:01 PM
SteveWrightNZ SteveWrightNZ is offline
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[...] or have a more stable IFR platform [not to say the Cozy IV isn't just isn't 'as']
RV is a more stable IFR platform than the Cozy ?? This is not what I thought.

S
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  #26  
Old 10-19-2006, 11:17 PM
rutanfan rutanfan is offline
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Originally Posted by Marc Zeitlin View Post
Doubt what you like, but COZY's get in the air for costs between $40K and $75K for the most part - even with a CS prop, you might add $10K to that range.
Vans estimates $100K build with minimal VFR avionics (keep in mind the IO-540 & adjustable pitch prop) This is way more than a Cozy. My friend built his for about $150K.
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  #27  
Old 10-19-2006, 11:25 PM
rutanfan rutanfan is offline
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Originally Posted by deuskid View Post
again, poor assumption. You only need to begin with the emmpenage kit. then either wings or fuse then the other then finish kit then engine then instruments... all can be done one piece at a time. you don't need to plunk down $46k all at once... only a few thousand every so often [you decide how frequently].
I’m not sure where my assumption was poor. I of course used the quick build kit as an anecdotal example that exaggerates my point. My whole assumption however was that most people can start building a plans built airframe with little or no delay, and that the alternate requires locking yourself into unwelcome high monthly payments. You debunked this theory by laying out a 6-month plan of $550 payments. You of course forgot the initial investment of $2,000 in tools… so extend that to an 8-month preliminary delay with no work on your aircraft. Any RV builder will tell you of course that Vans offers the $3,300 empennage kit as a low liability ‘toe dip in the water’ to encourage builders to take the plunge. It is tantamount to Rutan’s $50 practice kit & book. My friend Scott burned thru the empennage kit in one month. According to your non-interest incurring payment plan, by the time you receive the Wing-Kit you will have spent 1 month building, and 1.5 years waiting. Simply dividing the total kit cost by $550 yields 5.5 years. My friend built his in 2.5 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deuskid View Post
Don't need to finance nut'n. In the end cash outflow will be the same. RV fewer larger purchases, cannard many more smaller purchaes.. net cash flow ~ the same.
The RV-10 kit total (neglecting shipping & incidentals, etc) is $36K, or 4 average payments of $9K. If you total the cost of each chapter on Spruce’s website you get a total fuselage cost of $12.3K, or 22 average payments of $560. Of course I’ve left out small incidentals such as wood for jigs & templates, paint, etc. If you are the type of diligent person who refuses to buckle when his kids need braces, or his roof leaks and his car lost its transmission, then I commend you. But for the rest of the 99.999% of us, it is easier to part with money in small unbinding increments rather than large sum increments, even if the airframes were the same cost, which they clearly are not.
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Originally Posted by deuskid View Post
you only need to modify that which isn't already fully acceptable. there aren't many retracts on RVs but then they aren't needed. Don't need to extend the tail or futz with the wings either. Purty much about right as the kit comes...
Klaus’ can smoke nearly every 0-360 RV-6 with his little 0-200 varieze. If retracts aren’t needed on RV’s then they’re definitely not needed on these. And of course my comment about extending the tail was a comparison to the gaggle of Long-ez builders extending their lead filled noses to ballast the nearly doubled HP engine in back. Of course my argument wasn’t that the RV requires modification. It’s that plans built composite structures are easily customized… which some might find more appealing and therefore prefer the plans built. Show me a single RV with a widened fuselage or twin engine and I’ll concede this point. Show me a Long-ez without a widened fuselage or modified ailerons or rudders, or without a single modification that couldn’t be accomplished in an RV and I’ll show you an anomaly. My point is that some may consider this when choosing. If this is not a factor for you with the RV then it shouldn’t be with the Cozy either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deuskid View Post
If you want to use grass strips or t/o or land in 1/2 the distance of a canard or be done quicker or have a more stable IFR platform [not to say the Cozy IV isn't just isn't 'as'] then the RV is a better candidate.
I agree… However one oversized shoe fits most… and your suggestion that these aircraft be chosen simply on utility ignores the fact that some may find the RV cost overwhelming while some may find the lengthy plans-built method overwhelming. You'll spend as much time building as flying, and I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't factor this. I’m sure Jay Leno is just as happy in his Bentley as he is in his Ferrari, and I would expect most aviation enthusiasts are the same.

Regards.

Just out of curiousity, what are you building?
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  #28  
Old 10-20-2006, 12:33 AM
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David Clifford David Clifford is offline
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I had just under $17,000 into my Cozy fuselodge when I sold it to Thane, and it was not yet complete and built on a budget. Add another $1100 for the featherlite cowling with the shipping, $800 for the engine mount. I saved at least $1000 fabing the metal parts. The price of the materials have gone up considerably since we began. No way anyone starting now will be under $20K for the rolling Cozy MKIV fuselodge. My RV-10 at that stage will be $37K with shipping. Cowlings, fairings, engine mount is included in their kits. Just add a few dollars for options. I will be using my Renesis (225 hp) for power. It will be at the lower spectrum of the suitable hp the RV-10 is designed for, (210 to 260 hp), but will still give very respectable performance! Add $8000 for the engine and $2300 for an IVO C/S prop, then another $16,000 for navigation and avionics, and $6k for paint and interior and I will be easily under $70k. Thane estimates he will have $64k when done on his Cozy MKIV. That is a VERY nicely equiped Cozy MKIV with BM, AP, Brand new XP-IO-360 engine, C/S MT prop, Brand new IFR package, on and on. When done, I won't be that far away $$$ from a comparibly equiped MKIV.
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  #29  
Old 10-20-2006, 01:44 AM
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Oh my GAWD, I must have the WORST of all worlds. I have a KIT, FIBERGLASS CANARD with an AUTOMOTIVE CONVERSION, WANKLE ROTARY engine with an IVO inflight adjustable prop and a glass cockpit with NO steam guages. What must I be thinking ?

Even though this has been an entertaining thread, it still seems not to be an apples to apples comparison, obviously.

The RV-10 you are speaking of Dave, would not, if I understand correctly, be very close in price if it too was powered by a new Lyc...that would escelate the total price. Don't get me wrong, I applaud the use of a rotary, but it is at the lower end of the sprectrum for your use, while a Lyc is what is called out for in a Cozy.

I too do think a plans build is a great way to go to help manage the realities of cash flow. If'n I would not have had a couple of clients pay me what they owed me (money I never expected to see) kinda out of the blue, I would not, in all likelyhood, got the plane/kit I preferred. I was even considering the wood Barracuda so I could build something that met most of my criteria.........fast, at least two, but MUCH preferabley four, place, single engine cross country plane that could be equipped for IFR. There is something to be said for not saving, but to start building. The Velo did fit what I want and there is something kewl about it to me. .

That being said, if I build another, it could very well be an RV (7?) (Jana really seems to like RV's....but, I know if I would have originally gotten and RV, she would really like the Canards ).....or a helicopter....who knows. I need to get the Velo up n' flying for a while first.

So, the original question was "Why are Van's RV so popular?"

BECAUSE IT IS A DAMN FINE PLANE.

And that fact in no way diminishes other damn fine planes.....like the Velo, Cozy, EZ, Lancair or even a flybaby, if that suites your taste. Not only are they all fine planes, they are fine planes that can still be had by the guy or gal or somewhat "average means"....if not average perseverance ....what a great perk. You can get a plane that is comperable in MANY ways to Certified birds at a FRACTION of the cost. What a great gig. (ok, I will choose to gloss over that little tidbit of thousands of hours of "sweat equity" that too is required)

Actually, it may be kinda hard to find a certifed plane that is as versitile as most RV's.......the certified may be restricted by their very certification and the strangle hold of both gov't regulations and what may sell to a more "vanilla" GA public. FWIW.

All the best,

Chris
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Last edited by CBarber : 10-20-2006 at 01:56 AM.
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  #30  
Old 10-20-2006, 09:53 AM
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Kit, plans, glass, aluminum, wood, sleek, not sleek.

YOU GOTTA build what you LOVE and what fills a long term mission.
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