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  #31  
Old 10-20-2006, 11:10 AM
Phil Kriley Phil Kriley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust View Post
Kit, plans, glass, aluminum, wood, sleek, not sleek.

YOU GOTTA build what you LOVE and what fills a long term mission.
Well, some of us have to build what we can afford, and to suggest that a Van's RV-10 can be built for even CLOSE to what you could build a Cozy Mk IV for is just plane silly. Ain't no way, ain't no how.

If it were true, I for one would have built the RV-10. A less-expensive 4-place plane is the Zenith CH-640 - but it too would have been quite a bit more money than the Cozy.

So I'm building the Cozy because it's the only one that I can almost afford...
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  #32  
Old 10-20-2006, 11:17 AM
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Well Phil, I understand the logic and HOPE you finish. Just trying to have those who start, finish and not let sharks like neverquite buy up their hard work for peanuts, heh heh heh
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maker of wood, fiberglass, foam dust, metal bits and one day a Cozy will pop out and swiftly whisk me from meeting old friends and family to adventures throughout the world
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  #33  
Old 10-20-2006, 11:21 AM
Nathan Gifford Nathan Gifford is offline
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Originally Posted by CBarber View Post
...if I build another, it could very well be an RV (7?) (Jana really seems to like RV's....but, I know if I would have originally gotten and RV, she would really like the Canards ).....or a helicopter....who knows...
Chris, I've seen you Velo. If you can't be absolutely happy flying that machine, you are not going to be happy in anything else either!!!
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  #34  
Old 10-20-2006, 11:38 AM
deuskid deuskid is offline
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Pardon my not addressing each of everyone’s points but let me hit a few

Quote:
Originally Posted by rutanfan View Post
<snip>
Just out of curiousity, what are you building?
Nothing. I will know in about a year if I need to be doing x-c [about a 400nm one way flight] on a frequent basis. I probably won’t build because I don’t have the time. If I do build it will probably be Lightning [can be done in a few months [composite meets RV-9A, ]. I’ll probably buy a flying RV. Most likely a RV-6A as they are the best value out there flying right now.

I am researching and preparing if my son and his wife choose to relocate to her home city permanently after graduating from college [they live with me now].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Zeitlin View Post
<snip>

Great plane, the RV-10, but don't kid yourself into thinking that you can build it for the price of a COZY MKIV.
You’re probably right with equal equipment but -10 is NOT the only RV. I don’t need 4 or want 4 seats because of the add’n cost. Most pilots don’t need 4 seats. I wouldn’t build a -10 if I were to build. I’d build a -9A [I started thinking -9 but research has indicated the -9A can handle grass just fine and the -9 TD wants to float forever so is actually more difficult to land than the -9A [even tho slightly ‘better’ on grass fields]. Those few times when I need more than 2 seats I’ll rent.

The point I was trying to make was: Anyone who can afford a Cozy IV can afford an RV. An RV-10 might cost a bit more but we’re not talking an insurmountable leap in cost between the 2 aircraft. If you only need two seats then a RV [4,6,7,9,] can be built with similar equipment for relatively the same cost. All can be bought for about the cost of the material to build one [as can canards].

Cost isn’t a primary reason to build. If it were a financial decision it is probably more practical to get a second job and earn the cost of a flying experimental. Canard or RV you’d probably be in the air quicker. Build because you want to build not because it is cheaper.

The thread is about why RVs are great planes. Chris said it well. I tried to say it earlier. BOTH Cozys and RVs are excellent planes. Both are within the same range of affordability. Both are excellent x-c aircraft. Each has strengths.

IMHO, neither is superior to the other. Each fills a certain niche more aptly than the other. It is a matter of mission.

My mission is point A to point B. Fast enough to be convenient but safety is paramount.
I’ll be a low time pilot that wants IFR with Auto-pilot. I like the safety of being able to land on grass or put it down in a field safely in an emergency. I like the flexibility to land on short fields and not needing to land so hot. I’ll be moving 1 person most of the time – back seat has no value to me. I don’t want certified because of cost and because of the ludicrous maintenance rules. I am mechanically inclined so like to do work when possible [hence experimental]. It is safer not to have RG [can’t forget to put them down]. I don’t want an a/c that flys 100 mph but the difference between 170 and 200 mph in time saved for my mission isn’t worth the ‘cost’ in aircraft operational limitations due to a/c attributes.

I really appreciate canards. They have some great strengths. They are great planes. They look beautiful. I’m not slamming them! My point is are RVs excellent a/c as well.

Again, only MHO but, truely cost should be secondary to many other decision criteria.

John
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  #35  
Old 10-20-2006, 01:31 PM
Nathan Gifford Nathan Gifford is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deuskid View Post
...The point I was trying to make was: Anyone who can afford a Cozy IV can afford an RV. An RV-10 might cost a bit more but we’re not talking an insurmountable leap in cost between the 2 aircraft. If you only need two seats then a RV [4,6,7,9,] can be built with similar equipment for relatively the same cost. All can be bought for about the cost of the material to build one [as can canards]...
If you can buy a 777 you can build a rather well equipted Cozy and have some money left over. When people are doing comparisons one should always try to compare apples to apples.

Cozys and Velos are 4 place aircraft and should more properly be compared against the RV-10. 2-seaters should be compared against Vari & LongEZs.

Another nice feature of the 2-seaters is those cool little things that builders have added that makes them look like fighters (baggage pods). If you and a friend fill up your two-seater, with those pods you've got extra room for all kinds of gear.

Everyone will agree with you that RVs are good aircraft. The one thing that they can absolutely do better than any of the experimental canards out there is...be painted absolutely BLACK!!!
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  #36  
Old 10-20-2006, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Gifford View Post
[i]Everyone will agree with you that RVs are good aircraft. The one thing that they can absolutely do better than any of the experimental canards out there is...be painted absolutely BLACK!!!
I always wanted to be able to cook my food in the cockpit of my plane.... Black airplanes are really cool looking, right up until you fly one on a hot day. If you think a regular spam can gets hot, wait til you get in one that is painted black.... air conditioning would not even be an option, it would have to come standard.
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  #37  
Old 10-20-2006, 04:18 PM
deuskid deuskid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Gifford View Post
If you can buy a 777 you can build a rather well equipted Cozy and have some money left over. When people are doing comparisons one should always try to compare apples to apples.

Cozys and Velos are 4 place aircraft and should more properly be compared against the RV-10. 2-seaters should be compared against Vari & LongEZs.
Only if you need to carry extra folks - I don't. The thread relates to RVs as a family and why they are cool. Your 777 observation is silly. Most middle class Americans can find a way to own either a Cozy or an RV without much difference in effort so, in my opinion, cost becomes secondary to the abilities of each a/c.

We all know there is a wide range of costs within a model depending upon what is added to the airframe. I've already agreed that equally equipted Cozy IVs and RV-10s the -10 will cost more. I'm not so sure the same could be said about the Velo. I wouldn't consider a Vari or LongEZ because they require more skill than a newbie can handle [nor a Q model].

Both a Cozy and an RV [-9A would be optimal for my needs] will get me from point A to B. If someone is planning on flying solo most of the time then the back seat has no utility. If that same 4 seater requires paved runways and > 2,000 feet of runway then it isn't as attractive as an a/c that has more flexible TO and landing options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Gifford View Post
Everyone will agree with you that RVs are good aircraft. The one thing that they can absolutely do better than any of the experimental canards out there is...be painted absolutely BLACK!!!
I'd like to see you TO or land in under a 1000 feet. I'd like to see you hanger a canard on a grass strip. All things being equal, the canard will have greater risk of damage [occupants and a/c] than a RV in an emergency landing. I don't have the experience but I've been told that RVs are better IFR platforms [not saying the Cozy IV isn't a good platform only that the RVs are more stable]. Paint choice isn't the only thing at which RVs excell over a canard. Canards look sexy but I value function over looks and canards require more skill and are less 'docile' aircraft.

I'm not out to set speed records and I'm not trying to impress anyone with whatever plane I fly. I'd rather have an a/c that I can fly in mildly crappy weather [this is going to be a commuter a/c for me] and if I want to land somewhere that has grass then do it. Others value these attributes less and therefore come to a different decision. Frankly I'd pay a 10% premium for a stabler, better weather, more options in landing, and more survivable aircraft.

You know, I own a miata, a TDI VW diesel and a small pick up. Each has its purpose. So do canards and RVs. Each as a niche.

Canards are great. They are fast. They are hot. Look sharp. Those attributes come with costs and so are "a two edged sword". Positive for some. Less so for others.

Wonderous variety is what makes the world go round.

I guess I'll just have to accept my position to have a differing opinion. Won't be the first time... won't be the last...



Pax,

John
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  #38  
Old 10-20-2006, 04:43 PM
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MSires MSires is offline
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Don't feel too alone John, I agree with you completely. My primary mission requirements (long distance travel) is why I picked the Cozy. 30-40 mph when going 1400nm is a big deal. If grass was important, or my travel requirements shorter, the RV-7a was a strong contender. I like the RV-10, but the price to get started was steep. I also factored in that my building was going to be bursty - lots of activity, followed by periods of zero activity, due to business. This made plans built more attractive, since I didn't have to have the majority of the kit parts laying around to get lost/damaged during the inactive periods. Yes, you can by the kits 'piecemeal', but enough kit manufacturers have left customers with partially built airplanes after they went belly up I wasn't interested in that. Vans is apparently a well run company, but Enron looked that way once too.
For my short range, grass field flying, I stumbled on a good deal on a 2 place taildragger that is almost ready to fly again. Cheap, short flying now, long distance flying later.

Mark
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  #39  
Old 10-20-2006, 05:17 PM
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Theres no doubt that we are comparing apples to oranges here. A Cozy MKIV IS NOT a true 4 passenger plane. I have one in my shop now and can state for fact that there is NO WAY two adults can travel in any comfort in the back seat for more than a ride around the patch. It will hold two adults cozily (shoulder to shoulder) in front, and two kids in the back. About the only luggage you will be able to pack is a change of underwear cramed into the strakes. I started the Cozy MKIV because it was my best option for me at the time I started and I NEVER regret that decision. Last year I was down at my neighbors for a fall party. He is currently building an RV-7, his third airplane. His first was a composit Dragonfly, the second a tube and fabric Signet. I had the opportunity to sit in his RV and thats when it hit me like a ton of bricks,,,,,"RV Envy"! There was more room in the front seats of his RV-7 than my Cozy MKIV had, and it has a larger panel,, plus a very spacious baggage area behind the front seats. Perfect for me and my wife for travel as we don't plan on traveling with more than two. The RV-7's and 9's are $18,000 for the complete kits,,,thats less than a Cozy MKIV and it can take off and land just about anywhere. The RV-10 is the SUV of high performance 4 place aircraft and the initial kit cost will only be $17K more than a MKIV. A moderatly equiped 10 can be built for what a high end MKIV would run. Looks? Well we all know that a composite is sleeker that a spam can and canards are the coolest looking of all composites! The RV's though are very aerodynamic and the performance figures speak for itself. Vans is a well established company and will be around for a long time. You can either purchase a complete kit at once or buy it in sub kits at no cost penalty, other than additional shipping charges and possible/probable price increases as time goes on. One other plus side for the RV's is that if you decide you do not want to finish your project for whatever reason and wish to sell it, there are folks waiting in line who will pay you more for what you have into it. They come up for sale on a regular basis on the RV Forum and rarely last more than a week before someone snaps it up. Incomplete Cozy's sell at less than the builder invested. Neverquit is a prime example of this rule. It is not until they are complete and flying will the builder be able to recoup his/her investment. One more thing,,,, RV's are also easier to insure than canards, even though the engine is in the wrong place! Jon,,,,I am planing a black paint job with red as the stripping, and gold accents! So A/C will be looked into.
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  #40  
Old 10-20-2006, 09:18 PM
Blackhawk D Blackhawk D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Clifford View Post
About the only luggage you will be able to pack is a change of underwear cramed into the strakes..
Really?

Edited to remove the picture. I didn't think to ask Marc before I used it. Sorry 'bout that one.

When I read the comment about limtied storage space in the Cozy I was reminded of some of Marc's travels. Not four adults, but three and quite a bit of stuff. I would imagine the -10 could carry more. Good luck with your RV.

Last edited by Blackhawk D : 10-21-2006 at 12:15 AM.
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  #41  
Old 10-20-2006, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackhawk D View Post
Really?
Yes. With four people on board unless you have baggage pods, your only storage is less than 1 cubic foot under all four seats, and about the same in the strakes. (Unless you travel with it on your lap). Any other storage compartments I don't know about?? I didn't think so.
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  #42  
Old 10-20-2006, 10:37 PM
ZG4Me ZG4Me is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonC View Post
I always wanted to be able to cook my food in the cockpit of my plane....
Adds a new meaning to a hundred dollar burger "Hey everybody, Joe flew the barbecue grill to the fly in!"

The Cozy was 'just it' for me. Though I'd prefer a Berkut, finances say frugal is in.

Cozy can be built a buck at a time, once some inventory is bought. And this 'inventory' can be had from several approved and un-approved vendors. Not so for the RV (as I understand it).

But, a FRP aircraft needs larger 'blocks' of time to complete. You can't really stop then pick up where you left off.

Grass and dirt don't fit into my equation right now, most (all) of my friends/family are near asphalt.

Grass/short field may be nice at some time. I suspect this (and a fan in the front of plane) suits a *lot* of people.

A new spam can vs an RV? I'd build one too, and have twice the plane for the same cost (maybe). And built according to the way *I* wanted it

Rick
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  #43  
Old 10-20-2006, 11:54 PM
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Dennis Passey Dennis Passey is offline
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Hi there Dave- My buddy and I are not kids anymore- Ive got the badges to prove it- he and I occupied Marcs Mark IV in the backseat the equivelent of a flight from Monterey to Sanfrancisco [about 30 mns] and we were okay with it. I also have been in the back of Marcs plane with several other passengers as we took turns in between getting in the right seat[and these have been 30 min trips[not just around the 'patch']]...no a big a deal. I think you are confusing the term comfort relatively...I would fly in the rear seat for 45 mins to go do a fun trip 150 mles away in a heartbeat. Yep, its worse than coach by a longshot- but it beats TSA and paying 140. dollars for the ticket...and its fun. I weigh 225 and he weighs 185 for reference. Longer trips would be a bit much but 30-45 mins is o.k. [I just cock my hip sideways a bit] I have bought Gary Hunters big Mark IV sized pods and when I finish my Mark Iv- It'll be guys in front- wives in back and soft luggage in the pods [ all referenced to cg. of course.]
So apples to oranges... not exact.....maybe toss in a comequat into the blender as well.
BTW- Does Vans sell pods or do you throw yur extra stuff in a sack and drag it thru the sky behind you?[after all yer propellor is in front so you could do that kind of thing..
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  #44  
Old 10-21-2006, 08:02 AM
Dave Dave is offline
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I like Cbarber's idea, build the MK IV (or velo, whatever) for the long distance cruises with the kids and then build an RV for soft/short fields and maybe some acrobatics

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  #45  
Old 10-23-2006, 05:27 AM
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Default There is another...

I have been looking at building a canard aircraft for quite a while. I have always wanted to have a private pilot’s license, and I let life give me lots of excuses to keep me from it. Mostly I just thought flying was too expensive.

Then over three years ago on my first military deployment a pilot friend (fellow national guardsman with his private pilot's certificate) introduced me to the Long EZ (via the internet). I became very excited because I could build my own inexpensive, high speed, long distance cruiser (fun and practical).

Then I learned that you could no longer buy Long EZ plans. Disheartened but not dissuaded, searching the internet led me to the Cozy MKIV. Even better, it’s a Long that can haul more people or gear. I have a wife and kids so a cozy MKIV is even more practical. Since then I have done a lot of reading and research on home built airplanes.

In reading what a lot of you have said in this thread, what jumps out at me is that some of the Cozy MK IV's "pluses" are the RV's "Minuses" and vice versa.

1. MK IV is scratch built and can be less expensive to begin and finish (depending on what you put in the project). By contrast the RV must be bought in kit groups or as a fast built kit requiring thousands of dollars at once, up front.

2. The RV can take off and land in a short distance, as well as land on rough fields. The MK IV can not.

3. MK IV wins in the range and speed area.

4. They are both cheaper to own and operate than a certified aircraft.

5. They both offer the excitment of building and flying your own plane.

I have found two scratch or plans built designs that I would like to get your opinions on. Both offer short/rough field operation.

1. The Bearhawk. Taildragger. Highwing. Tube and fabrick fuselage, metal wings. Four (full size adult) seater with lots of baggage or two children's jump seats. Kits are available.

2. The Vision. Composite. Tail dragger or tricycle gear. Low wing. Two place with 2+2 versions being built. The designer sells pre-made sections of the airplane.

I am now about to finish my second deployment. Once I return home I hope to finish my private pilot's certificate, and begin building my airplane.

I just wondered since you were comparing pluses and minuses of the Cozy to the RV how these two planes would compare. It seems like none of the others is as popular as the RV is right now. Is that mostly because of marketing?

---Mike
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