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  #1  
Old 08-24-2006, 11:44 AM
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Default Which paint to use on these birds??

There are so many different paints to use out there. We want to decide which to use as the top coat and get the correct primer for it. We don't want "Smooth Prime", or whatever that stuff was that peels off. Suggestions based on experiance would be appreciated at this point.
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Old 08-24-2006, 12:58 PM
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Brian DeFord Brian DeFord is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Clifford
We want to decide which to use as the top coat and get the correct primer for it.


A lot of people have used PPG Concept 2K (DCC) since it can be found at most automotive paint supply houses. It is expensive, but I've heard no negatives from people who use it. look at the botom of this page for info...
http://www.ppg.com/cr-refinish/phase...Info.asp?Cat=9
I used AcryGlo from Sherwin Williams aircraft line and was very happy with it. It was much cheaper that the PPG, but I bought it through a friend who may have been given special pricing as he used it exclusively for the aircraft he painted.(http://www.sherwinwilliams.com/aerospace/acryglo.asp

I used PPG's K36 grey primer as have others. It's a great product, expensive though. I have no experience with anything else.
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  #3  
Old 08-24-2006, 01:06 PM
Buly Buly is offline
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I used 2 part epoxy primers Awlgrip made by US Paint and JetGlo aircraft paint by Sherwin Williams. It was applied by a hired gun from Gulfstream. I'm pleased with the results.
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Old 08-24-2006, 01:14 PM
Wayne Hicks Wayne Hicks is offline
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In no specific order:

1. The general rule of thumb is, "any durable urethane automotive painting system will work."

2. Stay away from acrylics.

3. Pick a paint that is compatible with your high build primer. If it's not, then first apply a sealer coat that is compatible with your top coat paint.

4. You might have to repair your plane. So pick a top coat paint that color matches well and that can be sprayed onto the repair spot and blended into the surrounding paint. Carl Denk preached about this. He said Imron paints are hard to respray and blend. Urethanes are more successfully blended.

5. As Brian said, aircraft grade paint works well, too.

6. Whatever paint you choose, please, please, please recheck the balance of your elevators and ailerons AFTER painting.
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Old 08-24-2006, 01:32 PM
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I originally started with Acrilic Enamel ( PPG ) over Feather Fill. It was a disaster.

Second round was Imron. Two part, very dangerous to breath. Like any other paint it also oxidized and still required wax after a few years. Expansion and contraction, hail, dings and other time related causes brings you small surface cracks. Along the tight radius's in the cowl or in fillets. We have 8 homebuilts outside on the field and I'm sure different paint sources. None are immune.

Straight surfaces like the tops of the wings or canard seem to weather better. The downside to the two part paints is that they are a dog to match if you have touch up to do. I recently had several areas and this was a major concern. No way I could do this with Imron so I asked the paint suppliers.

They suggested a single part paint from DuPont called Centari. I matched the paint codes after twenty years and to my huge surprise the paint went on effortlessly and was an exact match. I screwed up a little on one area by not mixing up the paint enough but a second coat did the trick.

It is a new blend enamel ( I think) paint but is totally different than the original enamel I shot 20 years ago.

Also, my supplier will take a pint of any paint and put it into spay cans for you. The price is $40 and requires a minimum of three cans. For that price you can make up some test plates.

I don't know if this will go on the same as a spray gun and compressed air but for $40 who knows.

Last edited by Glos : 08-24-2006 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 08-24-2006, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glos
Expansion and contraction, hail, dings and other time related causes brings you small surface cracks. Along the tight radius's in the cowl or in fillets.
Do you think this is because the micro is thick?

I am planning on re-glassing with fine weave 2 oz fabric these areas. comments?
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Old 08-24-2006, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust
Do you think this is because the micro is thick?

I am planning on re-glassing with fine weave 2 oz fabric these areas. comments?
One possible reason for the cracks is that the urethanes are really designed for surfaces which have less yield than composites. Perhaps the flexing leads to the cracks-- The inclusion of a plasticizer is possibly indicated. Randolph, and I am sure many others (what does GM use on their Saturns and Corvettes) has a urethane type specifically for composite-types.

I used Centari, catalized with the nasty stuff on my dragonfly.
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Old 08-24-2006, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
The inclusion of a plasticizer is possibly indicated. Randolph, and I am sure many others (what does GM use on their Saturns and Corvettes) has a urethane type specifically for composite-types
Sounds like a good composite automotive paint would work then? Easy enough to buy.

bob
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  #9  
Old 08-24-2006, 10:25 PM
Glos Glos is offline
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Good point Dust.

Nearly all the small cracks were over areas wherever the micro was thicker.
Remember that microballoons are hollow spheres. That means that there is air inside the balloon. The CTE ( coefficient of thermal expansion ) of air has to be petty high.

The 2oz cloth may be a good idea. So may be Wayne Hicks method of an epoxy overcoat. I just don't know. One thing will be for sure, hangared or not
there will be cracks over time. A hangar is not going to keep the temperature stable but its got to be better than my case of being outside in the extremes.

The other homebuilts also have cracks and chips with no micro. I wonder if they might have thick primer. Don't get me wrong, these cracks are not major. Just be prepared to touch them up as Wayne says.
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Old 08-24-2006, 11:28 PM
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I been lookin close at the birds i have seen lately and the cracking appears to be where the micro is thick. Epoxy is weak, fibers are strong. Adding flox is one method of making the micro fill stronger, but, I have no idea on how much it would take to add the amount of toughness I desire and I do not know how much sanding difficulty it would add.

So, 2 oz cloth over suspect areas is my plan.

On the additives for flexing. these additives are, I think, regularly added to the plastic car add ons, like the bumpers, headlight surrounds, etc.

Anyone experienced with them and know the plusses and minuses?

I talked to a local dupont automotive paint store - is the dupont urethane premium stuff good enough. they have color mistakes i can buy for cheep to experiment with. I want to practice with the real thing before i beg greg to squirt it
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Old 08-25-2006, 10:32 AM
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Just as a point of reference I added the "plasticizers" to the Imron. Everybody knows how tough Imron is. It is also one of the urethanes.

I don't know why Wayne recommends to stay away from the enamels. My first ten years of paint was enamel over the featherfill. The paint came off only where the featherfill flaked away. Hail started the first small "smile" cracks and things migrated from there once water soaked in to the filler. I had about four or five of these "smiles" about the size of a dime that wound up flaking away the size of your hand. Everywhere else and the paint was good to go.

The Dupont Centari shot better than both the PPG and the Imron. Time will tell but I know one thing that is certain. Patching and blending the Centari will be dirt easy. And it drys with a shine just like the Imron.

Another point of reference. Large flatfills like on the top surface of the wing etc. don't crack. The areas that do.

1. Matching the canopy frame front edge is where you might use micro.
2. Around the compound curves of the nose forward of the canopy and canard.
3. The cap piece over the canard middle section
4. The top cowling. This flexes a lot from constant removal
5. Small fillets where the winglets blend.

Oh by the way.

A second hail storm left me two dents in the Imron. One on the right aileron and the second on the left elevator. It was hard enough to fracture a couple of strands of glass and was about 1/16" deep. That's twice in twenty years.

Does this qualify me as an expert in parking outside? 1986-2006
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Old 08-25-2006, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glos
Another point of reference. Large flatfills like on the top surface of the wing etc. don't crack.
how bout where the wing changes direction at about the end of the spar? I've seen cracks there once, that i am sure of.

add the plasticizer to it all?

Do you plasticize the primer?

If it flexes, it will crack. - makes sense

on enamels vrs urethanes. Is not a difference in wether you can sand them out. the enamels go on and what you get is how good you sprayed and the urethanes can be sanded and polished out.

we do not use a color and a gloss coat system do we?
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Old 08-25-2006, 10:54 AM
Wayne Hicks Wayne Hicks is offline
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"I don't know why Wayne recommends to stay away from the enamels."

----> I have no personal experience myself, but it's advice passed on from other experts. They say that enamels can be dissolved by solvents. Most of us at one time or another will spill fuel on the strakes. Or get oil on the cowling, or have fuel drips from the drains. I was told that over time, the fuel and oil will dissolve enough of the enamel paint where it become very noticable (as in ugly).
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Old 08-25-2006, 12:09 PM
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Wayne is absolutely correct on the enamels. I have been thru all paint products since the mid 1950s, sprayed over 27,000 vehicles, used a lot of Centari and it is an OK product. Not good or excellent but OK. Stick with the uerathanes, either single stage or base clear systems. Both can be sanded and buffed to a very high shine. I would not recommend adding any flex agent to either paint system, It will sand much harder and will not produce the high shine as without it. I am in the process of refinishing my AC and should have all the prep work completed this week end. I use PPG products and have had exellent results with their products. I have also had some very good results with Shermin Williams products. None of the urethane products are cheep, I will spend about $1500 -$1800 for 2 part primer, 2 part sealer, base coat, color for stripes, clear coat, sandpaper, tack rags, reducer, hardners, tape, masking paper and I'm sure I have left something out. You can probably cut that in less than half with Centuri, but in this case you get what you pay for. I will spend a minimum of 35 hours just laying out and painting the stripes on my AC. If anyone has any questions, pm me anytime.

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Old 08-25-2006, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eracer113
Stick with the uerathanes, either single stage or base clear systems. Both can be sanded and buffed to a very high shine. I would not recommend adding any flex agent to either paint system, It will sand much harder and will not produce the high shine as without it. Jack
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So - heck with the dupont - I'll find a local ppg dealer.

heck with the flex agent, but hey - how bout on just the cowl and wheel pants and canard cover?

From a repair standpoint - how is the clear coat?
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