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  #1  
Old 12-16-2004, 04:02 PM
Noodles Noodles is offline
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Default What are the actual FAR limitations on flying a Cozy over dense populations?

My boss and I were discussing the pros and cons of flying an experimental. He said you couldn't fly over densely populated areas. I don't have my ticket as of yet and was not up to date on the rules and regs. I have place that FAR he sent me below, the specific reference is 2 (c).

Is he correct?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Federal Aviation Regulation



Sec. 91.319
Sec. 91.319

Part 91 GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart D--Special Flight Operations

Sec. 91.319

Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.


(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate--
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that--
(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.
(d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental certificate shall--
(1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the aircraft;
(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; and
(3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with operating control towers.
[(e) No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191 (i) of this chapter for compensation or hire, except a person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under §21.191 (i)(1) for compensation or hire to-
(1) Tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle in accordance with §91.309; or
(2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides prior to January 31, 2010.
(f) No person may lease an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191 (i) of this chapter, except in accordance with paragraph (e)(1) of this section.
(g) No person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under §21.191 (i)(1) of this chapter to tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation or hire or to conduct flight training for compensation or hire in an aircraft which that persons provides unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has-
(1) Been inspected by a certificated repairman (light-sport aircraft) with a maintenance rating, an appropriately rated mechanic, or an appropriately rated repair station in accordance with inspection procedures developed by the aircraft manufacturer or a person acceptable to the FAA; or
(2) Received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter.
(h) The FAA may issue deviation authority providing relief from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section for the purpose of conducting flight training. The FAA will issue this deviation authority as a letter of deviation authority.
(1) The FAA may cancel or amend a letter of deviation authority at any time.
(2) An applicant must submit a request for deviation authority to the FAA at least 60 days before the date of intended operations. A request for deviation authority must contain a complete description of the proposed operation and justification that establishes a level of safety equivalent to that provided under the regulations for the deviation requested.
(i) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the Administrator considers necessary, including limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.]


Amdt. 91-282, Eff. 9/1/2004

Comments
Comments


Document History
Document History
Notice of Proposed Rulemaking Actions:

Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. Notice No. 02-03; Published in the Federal Register on February 5, 2002.
Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. Notice No. 02-07; Published in the Federal Register on March 19, 2002.


Final Rule Actions:

Final Rule. Docket No. FAA-2001-11133; Published in the Federal Register on July 27, 2004.
  #2  
Old 12-16-2004, 04:27 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodles
My boss and I were discussing the pros and cons of flying an experimental. He said you couldn't fly over densely populated areas......

....Is he correct?
An old "canard", to use a different meaning of the word. A common misconception, held by those who don't know what they're talking about. No. He's wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodles
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.
Notice the very explicit words that begin paragraph 2(c), here:

"UNLESS OTHERWISE AUTHORIZED...."

and:

"The Administrator may issue special operating limitations ..."

When the experimental amateur built aircraft in question (mine, let's say) finishes it's Phase I testing and moves into Phase II (general flight), the Operating Limitations as issued by the FAA/DAR will say something along the lines of what mine says:
"This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated areas unless directed by ATC, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the surface."
In fact, my Phase I limitations ALSO had this paragraph, so even during my flight testing, I was allowed to fly in these areas, as long as I was high "enough" (with "enough" being defined after the fact, of course).

So the answer is, if you maintain a safe altitude (which, of course, you should be doing no matter WHAT plane you're in, and which is defined for you in other sections of the FAR's) - in this case, 1000 ft. above or 2000 ft to the side, IIRC, you can fly anywhere you want, just like any other plane.

Tell your boss he owes you the $50 you bet him, right? :-).
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  #3  
Old 12-16-2004, 04:41 PM
Clutch Cargo's Avatar
Clutch Cargo Clutch Cargo is offline
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Default dense population

Why would you want fly over dense population(s) anyway?
(Oh look! That looks like a dense poulation! Lets fly over it, OK?) Most of those aren't marked on charts. However, if you want to find one, ask FSS if there are any TFRs in your area. Sometimes TFRs apply during visits of certain political figures. Here is where the term "dense" can have added meaning, but TFRs take precedence anyway....
  #4  
Old 12-16-2004, 05:14 PM
Noodles Noodles is offline
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Default Slightly different conversation

Thanks Mark,

The original conversation was based on helicopters and the specific type was the Rotorway. He was trying to decide wether to get an Rotorway or a Robinson R22.

His understanding of the FAR, was that he wouldn't be allowed to land and hover in densely populated areas with an experimental helicopter.

I took the liberty to modify the aircraft type so that it would be applicable to this forum.

Thanks again,
  #5  
Old 12-16-2004, 05:48 PM
Nathan Gifford Nathan Gifford is offline
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Default

It is still the same for helicopters, etc. In fact, you're not allowed to hover, etc near assemblies of people for obvious reasons.
  #6  
Old 12-16-2004, 07:23 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo
Why would you want fly over dense population(s) anyway?
(Oh look! That looks like a dense poulation! Lets fly over it, OK?) Most of those aren't marked on charts.
First of all, there's nowhere in the FAR's where "dense population" or "congested area" is defined. Secondly, the sectional charts are covered with rectilinear yellow areas that represent cities, and these are commonly thought of as "densely populated" and/or "congested areas". I fly over cities all the time, at least on the east coast, where we have them :-). Having to avoid cities would be a PITA. That's why.
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