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  #1  
Old 01-31-2007, 04:46 PM
jbasol jbasol is offline
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Default Narrowed it down to 2

Hi Folks,

So it's been a while since I've posted. I've been busy both working and not working.

In any case, I'm now working on chapter 14 of my cozy project, and I'm giving more thought to the engine. I believe I have narrowed it down to 2 choices. The first is the Superior XP-400. The second is the Delthawk DH200A4. I have been considering pro's and cons of each, and summerized it as such:

Superior-
Pro's: Install should be fairly close to stock, with only minor modifications needed. Air cooled simplicity. Fairly decent power (220hp). Vast parts availability.
Con's: Higher fuel burn to go with higher power output. High rebuild cost. 4 stroke, 4 cylinder vibrations.

Deltahawk-
Pro's: Turbonormalized making rated HP to 18k feet. Uses cheaper Jet-A. Lower BSFC. 2 stroke 4 cylinder should be smoother. Lower (supposedly) overhaul cost. No valvetrain or ignition failures.
Con's: Supercharger and turbocharger add complexity. Water cooling adds complexity. Limited parts availability. Will likely require moderate install changes (cowling and plumbing). Unproven in the field.

I would love some input on things I've overlooked. For example one of my friends pointed out, that if Deltahawk were to go out of business after a few years, how would I obtain parts? Clearly Superior has been in business longer, and has a longer track record.

Thoughts?

John Basol
Big Lake, MN
N204TF - Chapter 14
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  #2  
Old 01-31-2007, 05:20 PM
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Have you figured out a cost comparison?
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  #3  
Old 01-31-2007, 10:41 PM
jbasol jbasol is offline
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I've made some loose comparisons.

The initial installation is about the same for cost, perhaps even a couple more bucks for the Deltahawk. The cost difference in the long run is supposed to favor the deltahawk. Again, I use "supposed to" because there aren't any long term examples to really quote as fact. Deltahawk says rebuild costs are around $5k, which depending on what has to be replaced in a Lyc, may certainly be an advantage. The fuel savings is probably the biggest gain for the deltahawk. Around $20,000 over the course of 2000 hours.

To be honest, I think the biggest issue with the Deltahawk at the moment is going to be availability. I have an email in to them inquiring about that. They have order forms on their website, so one might think they're getting close to shipping, but then again, Innodyn has order forms too.

-John
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Old 01-31-2007, 10:53 PM
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From what i know of the deltahawk - i would expet it to cost 10,000 or more to install than the xp400
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:28 AM
jbasol jbasol is offline
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Oh wow! I wasn't aware there was such a large cost difference. What is the big cost there? Looked like the engine was approximately the same cost. I didn't really see a whole lot in added gear needed. The radiator would add some cost, but that's about all I could see. The XP-400 lists for 29,995, the deltahawk for 32,450. If you add electronic ignition to the XP-400(which I would do), the price goes up to about 31,800.

-John
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:34 AM
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Oh - i thought the xp400 was 20,000 ish! is that the 360?
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  #7  
Old 02-01-2007, 01:53 PM
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ahhh...

Nope, the XP-400 is a 400c.i. 4 cylinder. It comes in either a 220hp or 250hp version.

The XP-360 is a 360 c.i. and available in 180 or 185hp versions.

-John
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Old 02-01-2007, 02:19 PM
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OK - I'm lazy, so, is not the deltahawk 160 or so HP? I'm just trying to make apples and apples comparisons
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Old 02-01-2007, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
BSFC; lb/hp/hr @ < 75% 0.38 -0.04 0.42 (best case)
ok 1st column is deltahawk.38 and lycoming is .42 (we know that with good procedures you can get that to .38 also, but, never mind that

HP for HP they are near identical, 10% (.42-.38) difference

where is this great savings comin from?
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  #10  
Old 02-01-2007, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust View Post
ok 1st column is deltahawk.38 and lycoming is .42 (we know that with good procedures you can get that to .38 also, but, never mind that

HP for HP they are near identical, 10% (.42-.38) difference

where is this great savings comin from?
How expensive is Jet A vs AvGas?

No valvetrain or ignition systems to maintain, heads are integral to the cylinder cases so no headgaskets/bolts to be concerned with. You do have the supercharger to maintain on the DH.

I looked over their Velocity when I was at Oshkosh in 2005.

I'm following their progress as best I can. By the time I need to decide on an engine I'm hoping there will be some at/near 2000hrs. Same for a Renesis rotary. Right now I'm leaning towards a 13b with a turbo.
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  #11  
Old 02-01-2007, 04:24 PM
jbasol jbasol is offline
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There are 160hp, 180hp, and 200hp variants of the Deltahawk. I'm considering the 200hp variant.

In trying to compare it to the XP-400, it stacks up a little short on power, by 20hp, at sea level. Though, take that argument up to 12,000 feet and it's a different story.

When I talked to Superior at Oshkosh, they had the XP-400 on display. The rep was telling me that the BSFC was about .45, which if my math is correct puts it around 12.4gph at 75% power, and 10.7gph at 65% power. Deltahawk is claiming a .38 BSFC, giving about 9.5gph at 75% and 8.3gph at 65% power. Of course, 75% power from the XP-400 and 75% from the Deltahawk are not the same, so to make a true apples to apples comparison on fuel burn, let's assume a 150hp power output, which is 75% power for the Deltahawk, but only 68% power from the XP-400. In this situation the XP-400 is burning 11.3gph to the Deltahawks 9.5gph, or approximately 1.8gph more. Over 2000 hours that's 22,600 gal of 100LL to 19,000 gal of Jet-A. My home field is at $4 a gallon for 100LL and $3.85 for Jet-A. Total cost of fuel is then $90,400 to $73,150 over the 2000 hour TBO.

To be completely honest though, cost isn't my largest concern in this decision. Reliability and performance are my first and second concerns, with cost coming in third.

-John
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  #12  
Old 02-01-2007, 05:21 PM
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Just info- but I had checked[in my past quest for ponypower]. The XP400SRE uses a 10:1 set of pistons which drastically reduce TBO, to achieve that 250hp. Superiors website wont even let you pull up TBO's...but Maybe Ken Miller with his famous award winning long eze might have an idea-as he has 10:1 pistons in his bird- but I dropped the SRE idea like a hot potatoe.
Mute point....everybody typically wants to get 2000hours. [except you auto-conversion guyz/galz]...[actually how do you alt engine folks figger TBO?]
Is it TBFU...T.ime B.efore F.eeling U.ncomfortable ?

I think you all are looking to get extended engine 'life' beyond 2000 hours, is what I mean.
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:58 PM
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TBWWTN

Time Between What Was That Noise?
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  #14  
Old 02-01-2007, 06:23 PM
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Nobody has mentioned it here yet, but something else that might be worth considering during the engine selection nowadays is fuel availability.

Choosing an engine that has an auto-fuel STC or is as fuel agnostic as a diesel might not be a terrible idea, or should at least be a line item to be aware of during the decision making process.

Just a thought.
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  #15  
Old 02-01-2007, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
[actually how do you alt engine folks figger TBO?]
Is it TBFU...T.ime B.efore F.eeling U.ncomfortable ?
Wanklers commonly the GAS approach. For $4000 we can "Get a Spare." and have it ready to swap in. This is in direct contrast to the CRAP "Can't Really Afford the rePairs" model often used for Lycomings.
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