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  #181  
Old 10-13-2006, 04:35 PM
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Now i got you - if the plane is sitting on the prop - you forgot to add ballast

I am planning on having a switch under the ballast compartment and under the passenger seat and a red light if both are full or both are empty and a no light if one or the other are empty.
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  #182  
Old 10-13-2006, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
I am planning on having a switch under the ballast compartment and under the passenger seat and a red light if both are full or both are empty and a no light if one or the other are empty.
That sounds like fun hanger puttering. Just get your Damn plane done.
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  #183  
Old 10-13-2006, 05:22 PM
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mtorzews mtorzews is offline
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Hey guys I am just an innocent bystander, but enjoy the back and forth "discussions". A lot of information and knowledge is brought forth in these discussions that allows me to make my own informed decision.

I don't know if I am abnormal or normal, but I will only make decisions based on my own interputation and analysis. I will not make a change based on what any one person says whether it is Dust, Marc, or anyone else that I am listening too. What these discussions do is give me the data and the arguments to bring into my own analysis, and improve the validity of my conclussions.

I don't always like the tone in the messages but please keep having them.

I really like that Dust thinks outside the box and brings new (or puts focus on old) mods.

I really like that Marc clearly states the negatives as well as puts the positives of said changes into perspective.

I enjoy the bantor and other view points that that everyone else brings to the discussion.

Thanks,
A mostly silent observer
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  #184  
Old 10-13-2006, 05:25 PM
Glos Glos is offline
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Originally Posted by Dust View Post
mmm, I'm pretty darn sure this does not have a flying change as the gear carry no weight in flight. Not suggesting that the wings be moved, just the rear gear
Sure it does Dust. The gear would be attached to a different location (Arm/monent) and they have to weigh something.

Further the air pressure on the legs is trying to push the nose down. Move the legs and you move the pivot point of this action and it may be noticable. How mcuh I don't know.

Even a change in fuel changes the flight. Back to Marc's spreadsheet. Look at the take off CG and the landing CG.

I notice it when when flying, the trim changes as the fuel is used. The fuel has acted on a arm of the plane.

I think that the CL and the CG have to be related somehow.
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  #185  
Old 10-13-2006, 05:43 PM
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Yes, must be related, that is probably why one is within 25%+- of the other

mtorzews - I HATE THE TONE - but like the info

I think the tone keeps most from adding thoughts
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  #186  
Old 10-13-2006, 06:35 PM
SteveWrightNZ SteveWrightNZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Zeitlin View Post
How would putting some verbiage on the spreadsheet change how you use it?
a. you cant be held accountable for its misuse (not that you could anyway)

b. people are told upfront they are welcome to modify it - encourages its' proliferation

c. modifications are REQUIRED* to be passed back to you, for your edification/entertainment/use.

d. modifidied versions of it MUST BE MARKED AS SUCH, so people who rely on your work dont inadvertantly use a modified copy (important! dangerous!)

e. you retain ownership and copyright, yet others can also distribute it legally.

f. it promotes community-ownership of the software. Everyone who works on or uses the software benefits from it, logically and emotionally.


*only if they distribute copies. so you get to include their patches, additions, modifications if they are useful to you.

So it is a little more than just verbiage.

S
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  #187  
Old 10-13-2006, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtorzews View Post
Hey guys I am just an innocent bystander, but enjoy the back and forth "discussions". A lot of information and knowledge is brought forth in these discussions that allows me to make my own informed decision.

I don't know if I am abnormal or normal, but I will only make decisions based on my own interputation and analysis. I will not make a change based on what any one person says whether it is Dust, Marc, or anyone else that I am listening too. What these discussions do is give me the data and the arguments to bring into my own analysis, and improve the validity of my conclussions.

I don't always like the tone in the messages but please keep having them.

I really like that Dust thinks outside the box and brings new (or puts focus on old) mods.

I really like that Marc clearly states the negatives as well as puts the positives of said changes into perspective.

I enjoy the bantor and other view points that that everyone else brings to the discussion.

Thanks,
A mostly silent observer
Yeah, what he says...

But I think it would be closer to 500 feet than 50 feet.
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  #188  
Old 10-13-2006, 10:04 PM
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Clutch Cargo Clutch Cargo is offline
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Lightbulb ground up...

I'm not fond of the fixed gear and so I'm planning my own home brew gear (retractable). I can see where the point of contact for the wheels may be off from the "acceptable" design position be a mm or 2. The balance of the entire airplane during take-off hinges on CG and flight characteristics are extrapolated from take off CG data. SO:
How will you check your CG data for flight? Or just build everything else according to plane and set the mains back 6" for the purpose of, what was it again? Making it so the aircraft won't tip over?
Just park the plane backwards to the tiedowns and make a tie down loop in the nose. Wouldn't that be easier than messing with the proven design? Or carry a stick to put under the rear (like those seats old guys take and watch golf on while perched as such). Why re-invent the wheel and add more complexity? I got my reasons and I may end up sitting on one of those chairs watching some one else fly my plane away from a nursing home! But I am using the existing technical data and bending my design to it, not the other way around.

BTW I like the confrontation. I also like the adage: "Better to be silent and thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"

A person's wisdom and decisions are proved correct by the outcome in the future. I wish we could place bets on some of the finish dates and successful mod completions.
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  #189  
Old 10-16-2006, 11:09 AM
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Took a minute to crawl under the plane and measure the angle change that would move the gear back about 4".

seven degrees
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  #190  
Old 10-17-2006, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Took a minute to crawl under the plane and measure the angle change that would move the gear back about 4".

seven degrees
How did you measure it?
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  #191  
Old 10-17-2006, 01:39 PM
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Took a small tool box 4.5 inches long and laid it in the floor under the gear cover at a screw. measured the angle to the front of it with a home made bevel gauge and an extension

Transferred the measurement to a bevel gauge

did it again, this time to almost the back of the little tool box, taking care to hold the bevel gauge in the same spot.

put the two bevel gauges together and what appeared was the angle change

Drew it on paper and measured it with a pretty accurate protractor.
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dust

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  #192  
Old 11-10-2006, 11:07 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
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Default Data Point for moving canard landing gear aft

So I had an interesting discussion today with Mike Melvill that was apropos of this discussion. We had a mass Scaled fly-out for lunch today from Mojave to Porterville, and Mike was one of the L.E.'s that went. (We also had the company Tiger and Dutchess, as well as one of the engineer's Cherokee's, but there were 5 L.E.'s and my COZY).

When we parked at Porterville, Mike left his nose gear extended, unlike the rest of us that at least partially retracted them for parking. No one forgot to do so. He did tie a chain around the nose wheel, but there was only about 10-20 lb. on his nose gear, total, including the chain weight when I tried to pick up his canard to see how much weight there was on it.

After lunch, when we went outside, I asked him why he left his nose gear extended - didn't it want to tip over? He explained that after RAF had built the prototype L.E., both he and Dick Rutan thought that the nose was just a little too light and that the plane might tip backwards even just from hitting bumps on a rough taxiway/runway. Although the plans version had the gear moved rearward from where the prototype had them, both he and Dick put their gear 1" further to the rear of where the plans called out on their two aircraft. He explained that they felt that this would prevent the tipping backwards, and it's why his plane can sit level with no-one in it.

Without prompting, he also said that if it wasn't so much damn work (he put the whole strut 1" further back, not just the axles), he'd move it forward to the plans position. I asked why, and he said that it clearly and substantively increased his takeoff roll over that of other L.E.'s that he's flown. And remember, he's got an O-360 in his L.E. It's no slouch.

Just thought I'd re-awaken the discussion with an applicable fact from a reputable source. One that happens to support the theory, as well.
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  #193  
Old 11-11-2006, 05:03 AM
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Marc that is a very interesting discussion indeed. Sounds like a good time as well.

It seems to me that increasing takeoff distance and increasing nosegear loading isn't worth aesthetics, but I don't get to have an opinion until I build an airplane.

One thing that does intrique me is that it appears that the MAC of the main wing is behind the main gear. If so, how much would the reduced moment from the main wing offset the increased load on the canard at rotation when you move the gear back? Would it be negligible?

-Garrett
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  #194  
Old 11-12-2006, 01:18 PM
cptomes cptomes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaleDC View Post
...
add enough extra power and you won't notice the difference, that's the USAF way.
Woohoo!!! A canard with afterburners...

Or rockets.

Xcor did it.
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  #195  
Old 11-12-2006, 02:13 PM
SteveWrightNZ SteveWrightNZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Zeitlin View Post
[....] if it wasn't so much damn work (he put the whole strut 1" further back, not just the axles), he'd move it forward to the plans position. I asked why, and he said that it clearly and substantively increased his takeoff roll over that of other L.E.'s that he's flown.
does this mean "moving the whole strut and not just the axles would not have this takeoff-roll extension" ?

If not, then why might he go to all this work ?


S
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