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  #1  
Old 05-25-2007, 12:18 AM
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mfryer mfryer is offline
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Default Take off performance

Yesterday I took my second passenger to Elma, WA (4W8) in a C-150. This was the smallest airport I have landed at (save a grass hill many years ago with an instructor).

My question is this... What is the take off performance of a Long-EZ. I know the answer to this is subject to many factors, but I am looking for something of an average or worst case.

Elma's runway is about 2300 ft long and 30 ft wide, paved. I really like the idea of being able to fly into little places like that. Could a long handle that safely?
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Old 05-25-2007, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfryer View Post
Yesterday I took my second passenger to Elma, WA (4W8) in a C-150. This was the smallest airport I have landed at (save a grass hill many years ago with an instructor).

My question is this... What is the take off performance of a Long-EZ. I know the answer to this is subject to many factors, but I am looking for something of an average or worst case.

Elma's runway is about 2300 ft long and 30 ft wide, paved. I really like the idea of being able to fly into little places like that. Could a long handle that safely?
Really doubtful. It takes me about 1800 to 2000 feet at sea level to break ground, without a passenger. I want a variable pitch prop just for that reason, to shorten takeoff distance. My personal minimum runway length at sea level is 3000 feet.

If you had an extremely light Long-EZ like Burt built them, it would help. The O320 EZs might do a little better, I think they do have a bit more power than I have.
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Old 05-25-2007, 07:15 AM
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The main factors would be Pilot experience, engine horse power, gross weight, crosswinds, and OAT.

A medium weight LongEZ with an O-235, My Caution flags would start flying at about 2500 ft. available. A hot day, heavy load, strong crosswinds, or combinations of the above could make operation could from a 2500 ft runway very risky.

An O-320 (160 hp) would add considerable safety margin to the above scnerio, but I would still use caution at high gross weights or strong crosswinds.

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Old 05-25-2007, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfryer View Post
Elma's runway is about 2300 ft long and 30 ft wide, paved. I really like the idea of being able to fly into little places like that. Could a long handle that safely?
Not really. I agree with Waiter. I have a Long with a fresh engine (O-235 L2C)
that has some muscle for it's size but I would not try this.

In addition, you must consider obstructions at the ends.
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Old 05-25-2007, 11:14 AM
Wayne Hicks Wayne Hicks is offline
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And think about stopping distance needed if you have to abort a takeoff. This is a short runway. It might put you running off the end and into the fence if you had to abort.
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Old 05-25-2007, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Hicks View Post
And think about stopping distance needed if you have to abort a takeoff. This is a short runway. It might put you running off the end and into the fence if you had to abort.
Excellent point. This issue has taken the life of at least one LEz pilot (running off the end into a fence). Spend a little more for more braking power and pay attention to operations that may heat the brakes (e.g. multiple runs down the runway).
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Old 05-26-2007, 08:59 PM
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Thanks all.

I think that what I am hearing here is that that short of a runway would be unsafe at best. I suppose I could always rent some other airplane to take if I really needed to land at those spots.
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Old 05-27-2007, 03:48 AM
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haven't yet built one, haven't yet flown one, but from what i gather, canards without HLD (high lift devices), which incidentally all canards in the GA are (except the starship) are simply not designed to do that kind of thing.

go fast fly high and economic don't mix with
land slow and short, and take off even shorter, mind without HLD.
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Old 05-27-2007, 01:25 PM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfryer View Post
Thanks all.

I think that what I am hearing here is that that short of a runway would be unsafe at best. I suppose I could always rent some other airplane to take if I really needed to land at those spots.
I took a look at that airport on Airnav. I would have no compunction at all about going into that strip with my COZY, with 1/2 fuel and 1 or two passengers. I've landed at Palo Alto (KPAO), which is 2400 ft at SL. used about 1800 ft. to land, and 1300 ft. to rotate on an 80F day with 1/2 fuel and just me and Deanie in the plane.

No sweat.

So build a COZY, not a Long. Or put an O-320 in the Long, and as Wayne says, put some real brakes on it.
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Old 05-27-2007, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
I think that what I am hearing here is that that short of a runway would be unsafe at best.
I don't think "UNSAFE" is an accurate term, I would say that short runways present different risks. Experience and knowledge can mitigate the risks from operating from short runways.

I flew out of PAO on a regular basis when I lived in CA. (I was based at RHV), PAO is no problem with an O-320. There are (were) a couple LongEZs based at PAO who had O-235, From talking to them, they considered PAO an OK airport, but they would always consider gross weight, and winds when it was time to go fly.

As pointed out by several others, the problem wasn't necessarly getting airborne in the runway available, but could you bring the plane to a stop if something went wrong.

Two issues at PAO, the 10 ft flood dyke when departing to the east (Most operations takeoff toward the west) and a 5 ft dyke and mud flats if departing to the west. ( Note: Add 6 ft to the height of the dyke because people are always there watching airplanes takeoff and land)

IMHO: With an O-235, I wouldn't recommend a low time pilot perform operations from PAO until they have gained some experience in their bird.

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  #11  
Old 05-27-2007, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Zeitlin View Post
So build a COZY, not a Long. Or put an O-320 in the Long, and as Wayne says, put some real brakes on it.
Other than a presumably larger engine, what benefit would the COZY have over a long?
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:38 PM
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.......pay no attention to that man behind the curtain over there!
The Long-EZ is the sports car of the sky.
And what makes you think you can put a larger engine in a Cozy vs. a Long-EZ.
At 200 HP you have a smokin' machine.
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  #13  
Old 05-28-2007, 12:21 AM
Marc Zeitlin Marc Zeitlin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfryer View Post
Other than a presumably larger engine, what benefit would the COZY have over a long?
A crapload more interior space, but that has nothing to do with the short runway issue.
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Old 05-28-2007, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Zeitlin View Post
A crapload more interior space, but that has nothing to do with the short runway issue.
Perhaps the added interior space would provide more places for passenger grab handles. (My friend was reaching around for something to grab onto while we here on short final. Fortunately he didn't grab the yoke)
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