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  #1  
Old 05-24-2007, 12:40 PM
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Default Chapter 5: Hardshell

In the Long-EZ plans there is a comment that you don't use micro-slurry on urethane foam. I spoke with another builder who (like myself) is using the vacuum bagging technique (on his Mark IV) and is hardshelling his fuse sides prior to laying up the inside glass.
Keeping in mind that my plans have a copyright date of 1980.......

Has the opinion changed as to using slurry/hard shell on this type of foam?
Is the foam used in the EZ the same as for the Mark IV for this part?

I want to get past this chapter this weekend so if I should be using micro slurry for this I'd like to hardshell it tonight so it will be ready to work on in the morning. (I'm taking Friday off so I can have a build-fest this weekend! )
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Old 05-24-2007, 12:59 PM
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i've used it on all parts

A little thinner mix on small cell foam, a little thick on large cell - or whatever i happened to mix. you knows - the hand slips sometimes

Why not use billski's method - he don't use micro on bagged parts does he? I've barely paid attention as i am not a bagger, he is and is quite experienced and thorough in his research and experimentation
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  #3  
Old 05-24-2007, 02:34 PM
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Okay....I just got some feedback and wanted to be sure it is in the post for future searches:
Quote:
I wouldn't hardshell urethane (although I certainly micro it), because it's so frangible that when you go to sand it after the hardshelling, you tend to rip chunks out, which you then have to patch with micro anyway. If you make the micro thick enough so that this doesn't happen, you end up with a lot of extra micro and weight.
I know most of the builders seem too be working on the Cozy Mark xx design which calls out a different foam in this area. I find no attraction towards working with uerathane but that's part of the build so I'll be glad to get this stuff sealed up and move on!

Now the upside: I don't have to wait until morning to do my inside layup!
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Old 05-24-2007, 02:45 PM
Lynn Erickson Lynn Erickson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMann View Post
In the Long-EZ plans there is a comment that you don't use micro-slurry on urethane foam. I spoke with another builder who (like myself) is using the vacuum bagging technique (on his Mark IV) and is hardshelling his fuse sides prior to laying up the inside glass.
Keeping in mind that my plans have a copyright date of 1980.......

Has the opinion changed as to using slurry/hard shell on this type of foam?
Is the foam used in the EZ the same as for the Mark IV for this part?

I want to get past this chapter this weekend so if I should be using micro slurry for this I'd like to hardshell it tonight so it will be ready to work on in the morning. (I'm taking Friday off so I can have a build-fest this weekend! )
the urethane foam that they are refering to is the very soft 2 lb density. I don't think anyone is using that foam any more. the foam is so soft that just applying the micro with a squeege will dent or reshape the foam. the foam had very small pores and the micro would not go into the pores so it was a waste of time. remember the reason for micro is to coat and fill the pores of the surface with a resin matrix to eliminate air and get it to stick to the surface. micro is lighter then straight resin and does not run off vertical surfaces
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  #5  
Old 05-24-2007, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Erickson View Post
the urethane foam that they are refering to is the very soft 2 lb density. I don't think anyone is using that foam any more.
i don't think they are using it any less are they?
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  #6  
Old 05-24-2007, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Erickson View Post
I don't think anyone is using that foam any more.
Yeah....I was thinking the same thing hence my post on Fuselage foam a while back. I think that was pretty much lost on the fact that nobody realized that the foam was different.
I guess that's a 'bad dog' on me. Wicks has all the breakdown of the parts in chapter 5 for both the Cozy and the Long-EZ.

Did I mention I'm not a big fan of uerathane?

Well hopefully by this tme next week I'll be researching and posting about chapter 6 (or maybe even 7 )
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  #7  
Old 05-24-2007, 03:52 PM
Phil Kriley Phil Kriley is offline
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Default Came in my chapter kits...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Erickson View Post
the urethane foam that they are refering to is the very soft 2 lb density. I don't think anyone is using that foam any more. the foam is so soft that just applying the micro with a squeege will dent or reshape the foam. the foam had very small pores and the micro would not go into the pores so it was a waste of time. remember the reason for micro is to coat and fill the pores of the surface with a resin matrix to eliminate air and get it to stick to the surface. micro is lighter then straight resin and does not run off vertical surfaces
Well, I've been wasting time and money putting slurry where it's not needed, I guess. I used the materials that came with my chapter kits and followed the directions regarding micro slurry on foam - never read anything that suggested that I NOT micro-slurry the soft stuff... And yes - if you stare at the stuff it will crumble before your very eyes. I used it on my fuse bottom to build up the NACA scoop.
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Old 05-24-2007, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Kriley View Post
if you stare at the stuff it will crumble before your very eyes
Yeah.....and that's no exageration either! I bought an extra piece of the stuff (24"x48") that I was going to cut in half to extend out the 96" piece rather than screw around with scraps as called out for in the plans. Anyway, the box came last week and I had it standing on end while I was working on something else close by. I kept on hearing a hissing sound and couldn't figure where it was coming from. It turns out that it was granules of uerathane settling in the box due to it's new position.

After you work with that cr@p, it's hard to believe that I couldn't come up with some more structural by recycling all those packing peanuts in a slurry mix of micro & epoxy.

Well maybe not that bad but just about!
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  #9  
Old 05-24-2007, 04:36 PM
Lynn Erickson Lynn Erickson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMann View Post
Yeah.....and that's no exageration either! I bought an extra piece of the stuff (24"x48") that I was going to cut in half to extend out the 96" piece rather than screw around with scraps as called out for in the plans. Anyway, the box came last week and I had it standing on end while I was working on something else close by. I kept on hearing a hissing sound and couldn't figure where it was coming from. It turns out that it was granules of uerathane settling in the box due to it's new position.

After you work with that cr@p, it's hard to believe that I couldn't come up with some more structural by recycling all those packing peanuts in a slurry mix of micro & epoxy.

Well maybe not that bad but just about!
You are not using it right? don't use that foam for anything as it will degrade just from the engine vibration. the PVC is the best for the fuselage as it is fuel resistant and resists delam the best. with poly styrene if there is a fuel leak it will dissolve the foam.
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  #10  
Old 05-24-2007, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Erickson View Post
You are not using it right? don't use that foam for anything as it will degrade just from the engine vibration. the PVC is the best for the fuselage as it is fuel resistant and resists delam the best. with poly styrene if there is a fuel leak it will dissolve the foam.
WHAT??????
We are talking about the uerathane foam called out in the plans........not polystyrene.

Am I missing something here?
Is there a problem with the plans materials?
Keep in mind this is NOT a Cozy.
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  #11  
Old 05-24-2007, 05:09 PM
Lynn Erickson Lynn Erickson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMann View Post
WHAT??????
We are talking about the uerathane foam called out in the plans........not polystyrene.

Am I missing something here?
Is there a problem with the plans materials?
Keep in mind this is NOT a Cozy.
if you are building a long eze per plans. do not use the uerathne foam as it will delam. ask any owner. look at any plane near the pilot seat and you will see bulges from delam. can't count the number of delam repairs we have made to long ezes almost every one we have worked on. use 3 lbs. density PVC and you will not be sorry
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Much better with a Dremel than a computer.
What if they gave me choice between a fast computer or a fast plane?
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  #12  
Old 05-24-2007, 06:59 PM
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Okay......I dug through my foam warehouse and I have enough H45 to get me through this superbuild weekend.

I really hate poly-U
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  #13  
Old 05-24-2007, 07:19 PM
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Lynn - this is the stuff that my nose and canopy surround and strake leading edge is made of!
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  #14  
Old 05-24-2007, 07:35 PM
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Okay.......all the pieces seem to fit together. J D over at infinity warned me about a foam and in looking at my notes this is the one. It really has no place in my build especially in my cockpit! To quote J D, the reason is that any fire that might spread to this foam will release a lot of toxic gas in the pilot's habitat!

so many things to remember......
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  #15  
Old 05-24-2007, 09:01 PM
Lynn Erickson Lynn Erickson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust View Post
Lynn - this is the stuff that my nose and canopy surround and strake leading edge is made of!
It has been use in non structual places like the nose because it is very easy to carve and sand. the compound curves of the nose and the many plys of the canopy surrond do not rely on the foam for any strength. in these areas you won't know if it delams and won't care. the flat sides of the long eze are the places that rely on the foam to keep the thin 2 ply layup flat and straight
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Much better with a Dremel than a computer.
What if they gave me choice between a fast computer or a fast plane?
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