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  #31  
Old 06-06-2007, 05:35 PM
ShaleDC ShaleDC is offline
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

Quote:
Originally Posted by chasingmars View Post
I think I'm missing something... where are these 15 layer BID reinforcements called out? The above seems to imply that they are on both Cozy and Longs, but I didn't see them in my Ch5 Cozy plans? Are they called out later, and are people doing them earlier for some reason?

It's not a mistake made when copying the LongEz plans, it's based on all the engineering and testing that went into the Cozy design.

Or consider it an "undocumented weight saving feature"...
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  #32  
Old 06-06-2007, 07:07 PM
Wayne Hicks Wayne Hicks is offline
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

Your Cozy plans are correct. If you're building a Cozy, you do not need the 15-ply layup on the fuselage sides being talked about here for the Long-EZ.

The gear is mounted differently in a Long-Ez than it is in the Cozy. In the Cozy, the gear is mounted between two landing gear bulkheads. In the Long EZ, the gear is mounted between two aluminum angle brackets secured to the inside of the fuselage sidewall. There are no landing gear bulkheads. In the Long-EZ, the 15-ply layup is a reinforcement pad applied to the inside of the fusealge sidewall for installing these aluminum angle brackets.
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  #33  
Old 06-06-2007, 11:47 PM
Bruce S Bruce S is offline
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

At the risk of being accused of going off topic ever so slightly..........
Does anyone know if anyone has mounted the fixed gear in a LEz using the Cozy bulkhead design? As I figure, this would still leave the option for changing to a Velocity/Drybread retract design later?
If you feel this is off topic, please contact me with a private message.

Cheers,

Bruce.
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  #34  
Old 06-16-2007, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

Hey Waiter.......do yo think there is enough room around the retracts that I could get away with installing landing lights on the gear legs?
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  #35  
Old 06-17-2007, 01:21 AM
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

Do you really want to be swinging a hot lamp (that may or may not switch off) plus hot electrical connections up into your fuel strakes?
Just a thought, Chrissi
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  #36  
Old 06-17-2007, 09:24 AM
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

I have a small 55 watt driving light, maybe 2 inch in diameter on each gear leg.

Scroll down about half way, There is info on the clamp, light, etc.

http://www.iflyez.com/LongEZ_Retrofit_APR_05.shtml

I think they are sold under the name "Pilot", I found them in an auto parts store , 2 for $29.00. They are round and the lens has a slight blue tint to it.

The details on how I made the mount are on my site. I got a couple aluminum ring clamps from McMasterCarr that are sized for the gear leg. I then welded a small bracket to the ring clamp that would fit the light.

Space is real tight inside the gear well. On the inside skin of the top strake, I had to make an indentation, or small pocket. This buys another 1/2 inch so the light won't hit the skin when the gear retracts.

As noted by Crissi, 55 watts is a lot of heat, so make sure you have some type of automatic system to turn the lights off while in the well. A relay operated by the Strut switch or the downlock switches would be easy to configure.

OR:

In my "Waiter's Landing Gear Controller", I have an output signal called "Landing Light Interlock". This signal energizes a small relay when the gear is retracted.

Power to the landing lights goes through a Normally Closed (NC) set of contacts on this relay. This was done to to make the system "Fail-Safe". In other words, the majority of the anticipated failure modes, i.e. controller bad, relay coil burn't out, the relay will not energize and your Landing lights will still work just fine.

Anytime the gear is retracted, the relay energizes and power is removed from the lights. When the gear is extended, the relay de-energizes, and the power goes to the lights if the main landing light switch is turned ON.

In the unlikely event that the landing gear computer fails, the relay should de-energize and the Landing Lights will work normally.

BIG NOTE: In my "Emergency Procedures" for a failed Landing Gear Controller. If the gear is retracted, I have the Pilot ensure that the Landing Light switch is turned to OFF, then pull the circuit breaker for the landing gear computer. This ensures that the lights will not be turned on while they are in the well.

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Last edited by Waiter : 06-17-2007 at 09:52 AM. Reason: Brain Damage - I couldn't remember everything the first time
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  #37  
Old 06-17-2007, 10:29 AM
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

Waiter, sounds like you have it under control.
My concern was in no way being critical of you but that the average person may not have things quite as well sorted out.

Regards, Chrissi
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  #38  
Old 06-17-2007, 11:06 AM
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cozy Girrrl View Post
......the average person may not have things quite as well sorted out.
HEY! Who you calling average!
That's it......I'm going back to the Jerry Springer forum.

Waiter.....Thanks for the input. I was looking at one of the real planes in the hanger during our EAA meeting (I think it was a Centurion) that had this type of set-up and the thought came to me that the design might be transferable.
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  #39  
Old 06-17-2007, 11:09 AM
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

Quote:
Waiter, sounds like you have it under control
.



Right, Sure, Whatever you say:

seriously, Every time I've "Deviated" from the plans, It always seems like there's something down the road that I didn't think about or haven't planned for.

Thats one of the things about these forums. Its kind of like having a "Critical Design Review Meeting". Things I havn't thought of, maybe someone else has.

Anyway, Thanks for the insight. Just goes to show you:

"Great Minds do think alike"

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  #40  
Old 06-17-2007, 11:57 AM
chasingmars chasingmars is offline
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

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Originally Posted by Waiter View Post
Power to the landing lights goes through a Normally Closed (NC) set of contacts on this relay. This was done to to make the system "Fail-Safe".
Speaking of a Critical Design Review ...

I have to question using a NC relay vice normally open.

If the relay fails, it fails closed, and then on landing gear retraction, when the computer commands power disconnection nothing happens, and if the pilot doesn't turn the lights off, they stay on...

This might be considered ok, because of the manual switch, i.e. procedurally, you turn the switch off, and in the unlikely event that the switch isn't, the relay is just a backup, both would have to fail to create an unsafe situation...

except - you have no immediate indication if a bad relay. If the relay fails, the system merrily continues to work as anticipated, as long as you don't forget to flip the switch, so you're not looking at a mode of failure that will be easily detected, so really, it's not at all fail safe, when the interlock fails, there's no functionallity change to indicate failure, and you've taken the next step down a chain of events...

Anyhow, maybe I've misunderstood the system, or the failure modes of relays? If you had a normally open relay that was energized on gear down, most of this could be avoided (not all, relays can stick on) On the other hand, an energized open relay is less likely to flail and make intermittant contact if it gets a broken spring.

Just a mostly uninformed musing...
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  #41  
Old 06-17-2007, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

Quote:
except - you have no immediate indication if a bad relay. If the relay fails, the system merrily continues to work as anticipated, as long as you don't forget to flip the switch, so you're not looking at a mode of failure that will be easily detected, so really, it's not at all fail safe, when the interlock fails, there's no functionallity change to indicate failure, and you've taken the next step down a chain of events...
Yes, I agree.

I didn't say it was "Fail Safe" for all failure modes. (Like that disclaimer! )

As you mentioned, The "Chase" continues;

My design approach was to allow the use of the landing lights, even if I didn't have enough power for the gear controller, or the gear controller failed. I don't anticipate relay failure (Which means it will fail on the second or third flight )

Relays generally fail in one of two modes:

1) The contacts fail - fryed, burnt, overheated.

2) The coil fails - the relay won't energize.

************************************************** *******

You are correct, if the relay fails to energize, and I operate the lights as I prescribed, then I will never detect the relay failure.

With that said, in order for the lights to be ON when the gear is in the well, then I had to have two unrelated failures;

ONE - Power is still being applied to the light circuit, (either the pilot didn't turn the switch OFF, or the switch failed)

AND

TWO - The Interlock relay is failing to energize

************************************************** ******

If I use the NO contacts, and the relay fails to energize, I don't have landing lights, period.

Not to bad if I'm sitting on the ramp getting ready to taxi out. But, unacceptable if its dark, and I just pumped the gear down by hand, because my alternator/battery is low.

Which condition do you prefer?

Waiter
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  #42  
Old 06-17-2007, 06:44 PM
chasingmars chasingmars is offline
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiter View Post
Which condition do you prefer?
I'm not the Naval Aviator, I'm a low time student pilot, so I'm not qualified to judge that one , me I just come at things from the engineering angles... so, I wasn't debating the failure design choice, just the "fails safe" statement combined with a failure that isn't necessarily easily detectable that leaves you with a hot system gear up.

The more important thing is you know your system and it's limitations, with the goal of having landing lights on a failed relay being more important than having live lights stowed, your design choice is logical, and I gather you've more than enough flight experience to remember to flip the switch.

Educational though. I have occasional pangs to design a retract system (though realistically, I'm going fixed), so this is interesting to me, thanks for sharing it.

One idea, put a circuit with NOT (Gear Down) AND NOT (Relay closed) in to a flashing annunciator light and you have a warning indicator that your stowed gear lights are live.
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  #43  
Old 06-17-2007, 06:54 PM
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

Quote:
I gather you've more than enough flight experience to remember to flip the switch.
Ah, Well, Kinda, I hope.

Hence the reason for the relay.


Quote:
One idea, put a circuit with NOT (Gear Down) AND NOT (Relay closed) in to a flashing annunciator light and you have a warning indicator that your stowed gear lights are live.
If I were going to pursuit this, I would add a small light sensitive diode inside the wheel well near the Landing Light and wire it to some type of annunciator, as you suggest. This way, regardless of why the light is on (failed relay, failed switch, failed pilot, etc), I would get a warning.

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  #44  
Old 06-17-2007, 07:36 PM
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John Slade John Slade is offline
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

Just a thought, but what about a night off-field / water landing, when you might want your gear up, but still need lights? Do you have a backup light?
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  #45  
Old 06-17-2007, 08:06 PM
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Default Re: Chapter 5: Infinity Retracts

John........glad you broght that up.

these are the proceedures I have in my checklist for engine-out night cross country landings:

1. feather prop.
2. contact ATC for vectoring to nearest airfield.
3. if you can't make the field look for a dark area to put it down (i.e. no lights = no wires.)
4. As you get down to about 100' AGL turn on your landing lights.
5. If you don't like what you see ....... turn them off.
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